James Posted March 17, 2008 Report Posted March 17, 2008 Dear NMB Members, I recently bought this wakizashi on eBay, signed 'Izumi (no) Kami Rai Kinmichi' and I'd appreciate some help assessing it. It's an interesting sword for a few different reasons. Most obviously is the unusual kiku mon on the nakago; I believe it's called an eda kiku mon(?)- please see photos. The blade is really thick and heavy compared to other wakizashi I have seen and held. The specifications are: Overall Length: 68.95cm / 27.5' Nagasa: 54.6cm / 21.5' Width at Machi: 3.35cm / 1.32' Thickness at Munemachi: 0.8' / 0.32' I think this is of shobu-zukuri construction, but I'm not sure. There doesn't appear to be a yokote but it's not in polish so it still may be shinogi-zukuri. The hamon and hada cannot be seen at all and there are many very light scratches along the ji, but the shinogi-ji is burnished nicely. There is no rust at all on the nagasa. Some other interesting things are that it came with a shirasaya that is literally falling apart but with a lovely (and modern?) habaki. Also there is a strange grey patch between the machis and the top of the kiku mon - is this just from the polishing stones or something else? As you can probably tell, I'm a novice here but I can usually tell a well made Nihonto when I see one (the Sandai Tadayoshi sword I bought on eBay for example), and this blade really seems to be a powerful and potentially beautiful sword. Here are the photos: http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb13 ... C00285.jpg http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb13 ... C00287.jpg http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb13 ... C00276.jpg http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb13 ... C00279.jpg http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb13 ... C00281.jpg http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb13 ... C00282.jpg http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb13 ... C00283.jpg http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb13 ... C00284.jpg http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb13 ... C00290.jpg http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb13 ... C00291.jpg http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb13 ... C00292.jpg All comments/assessments are most welcome.
Brian Posted March 17, 2008 Report Posted March 17, 2008 Here is the one main nakago pic, rotated and resized. If you keep the photobucket pics under 800px wide, then you can display them here directly without having to click a link I know some guys just don't check out pics if they have to browse away. Brian
James Posted March 17, 2008 Author Report Posted March 17, 2008 Noted, thanks Brian. Here are a few of the photos from the links:
Jacques D. Posted March 17, 2008 Report Posted March 17, 2008 hi, It is the yondai (4th) Rai Kinmichi, he recieved his title on 1692, he won the Shogun competition in 1722. This signature looks genuine :D
James Posted March 17, 2008 Author Report Posted March 17, 2008 hi, It is the yondai (4th) Rai Kinmichi, he recieved his title on 1692, he won the Shogun competition in 1722. This signature looks genuine :D Good to hear about the signature, thanks Jacques. What's the Shogun competition? I haven't heard of that before. Also, I've just noticed something on the sword and I'm not sure how bad this is; the area just below the ha machi looks like it has been recently grinded a bit - possibly to make the hamachi bigger (?). Is this bad / possibly a sign of a tired blade? Here's a photo:
Jacques D. Posted March 17, 2008 Report Posted March 17, 2008 Hi, Sorry, i've made a mistake about the winner of the shogun competition, it is not the yondai but the sandai (3th) who won. About this competition, i don't have more information. Reshaping a nakago is never a good thing. This blade could be tired, i've noticed some thing on the kiku mon, it upper part has vanished it is also a sign. Look at this one below which is tokubetsu hozon.
Brian Posted March 17, 2008 Report Posted March 17, 2008 No..but it doesn't have to be a critical thing either. Most of us here still agree that tiredness has to do with the blade being unable to take any further polishes. This one still seems capable. Looks like it was done to rebuild the machi, and could have been done better. But I don't regard it as anything fatal either. The nakago shape is still fairly well preserved and the blade looks healthy enough from the pics presented. No need to throw it away just yet :lol: Brian Btw..the mei matches very well with Jacques' example.
Jean Posted March 17, 2008 Report Posted March 17, 2008 The eigth Tokugawa shogun, Yoshimune (ruled 1716-1745) was distressed by the fact there may not be anymore skilled swordsmiths in Japan. In 1721, He summoned some reknown swordsmiths to enter into competition. Mondo no Sho Masakiyo (1670-1730) and Ippei Yasuyo (1680-1728)collaborated to forge a blade . They were on they way back to Satsuma when Yoshimune granted them the right to inscribe the design of a single hollyhock leaf on the tangs of their blades. (The hollyhock was the Tokugawa crest.) They were the first winners of this competition
James Posted March 17, 2008 Author Report Posted March 17, 2008 I'm my novice opinion it can take another polish, and there seems to be a fair amount of niku remaining on the blade. Is there any chance of getting a photo or two of the actual blade of that sword Jacques? I'd love to see what the hamon/hada may look like on my Kinmichi.
Jacques D. Posted March 17, 2008 Report Posted March 17, 2008 hi, No problem :D outside, inside and detail.
Stephen Posted March 17, 2008 Report Posted March 17, 2008 nice pix, sure wish i could go there...but dont care for mygirlyspace...you and Simon
Brian Posted March 17, 2008 Report Posted March 17, 2008 For those that think that Stephen is senile and rambling incomprehensibly... :lol: :D He is refering to the fact that some people get random popups from imageshack when they click the thumbnails. I get them maybe 1 out of 10 clicks, and they don't affect my pc. Stephen...have you run Ad-aware and cleaned your pc of spyware? Also added imageshack to your browser popup blocker? I think it is a combination of these things that causes the issue. Btw....everyone should be running Ad-aware regularly on their pc's. Brian
Stephen Posted March 17, 2008 Report Posted March 17, 2008 fact of the matter is i do ramble incomprehensibly, that pop up not only pops up mygirlyspace it takes over my homepage. dont care to mess with them no more no how no way. ramble ramble...senile ol (&^^%$%$&)
Stephen Posted March 17, 2008 Report Posted March 17, 2008 back to the wak ..center pix of the last three show us that this should be a last polilsh...see how thick the nakago is at the ana and how less it is at the munemachi. If you get it done have it done by a top togi not some starterout. with no flaws you should do well at shinsa. BTW id do the big n, NBTHK. Its worth your money.
Stephen Posted March 17, 2008 Report Posted March 17, 2008 Thanks to Brian and the link to adware i wont be blowing off steam over popups anymore...works quite well and found four miners of info on the PC and about 800 infections. IT WORKS!!! this dont mean im going to stop being a grump
James Posted March 18, 2008 Author Report Posted March 18, 2008 back to the wak ..center pix of the last three show us that this should be a last polilsh...see how thick the nakago is at the ana and how less it is at the munemachi. If you get it done have it done by a top togi not some starterout. with no flaws you should do well at shinsa. BTW id do the big n, NBTHK. Its worth your money. Is there a list of Japanese togi somewhere online? I've just been in contact with Kenji Mishina about having this piece polished, but he says his waiting list is 18 months. Are there any togi that people can recommend to me and also provide a way for me to contact them?
Stephen Posted March 18, 2008 Report Posted March 18, 2008 id wait the 18mo some are three to four years for top togi. it will be over before you know it.
Brian Posted March 18, 2008 Report Posted March 18, 2008 Why don't you have a chat with Brian Pedersen in Japan? viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2587&p=18675 Fully trained and qualified. Brian
James Posted March 18, 2008 Author Report Posted March 18, 2008 Why don't you have a chat with Brian Pedersen in Japan?viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2587&p=18675 Fully trained and qualified. Brian Thanks, I'll do that.
James Posted July 2, 2008 Author Report Posted July 2, 2008 I sent this sword to Japan for a fresh polish, but I'm baffled by the Japanese agent's comments. He seems to think that the blade isn't showing the hamon because it was burnt in a fire, which I replied saying that the blade isn't showing the hamon because at some point in time the sword has been buffed and/or taken to with fine sandpaper by a previous owner in the US, probably to remove the rust. I thoroughly assessed the sword before sending it and there was no pitting or other evidence or fire damage, it was just that the blade had been sandpapered by an ignorant past owner. But now after I asked for an update, here is what he replies with: Hello James, Please recognize the thing that the blade disappears to the sword when it is heated by strong heat. The blade starts disappearing because your sword received strong heat. It polishes by the specialized technique now to revive your blade. I think that it goes well maybe. The reason for the house in old Japan is that it is made of the tree and paper and burns easily such a lot of swords are in Japan. Only the blade's remaining should express gratitude to your sword for luck. Thank you Can anyone make sense of this?
nagamaki - Franco Posted July 2, 2008 Report Posted July 2, 2008 I'm merely guessing here, but he might be saying this sword is retempered. Ask if this sword has sai-ha and see what the reponse back is. If yes, ask that any work be stopped, having it polished would not be a good idea at all. Shinsa will bounce it. Retempered swords are a lot more common than most collectors believe, unfortunately.
Brian Posted July 2, 2008 Report Posted July 2, 2008 James, This is what I read it as. I think by sword he means hamon. So: Hello James, Please understand that the hamon disappears when the sword is heated by strong heat. The hamon starts disappearing because your sword received strong heat. It is being polished by a specialized technique now to revive your blade. I think that it goes well maybe. The reason is that the houses in old Japan are made of wood and paper and burns easily, so a lot of swords like this are in Japan. You are still lucky that the swords remains to this day. My guess...English to English translation. As mentioned, there are a heck of a lot of fire damaged swords out there. Some with no hamon, some retempered. I am guessing yours has lost the hamon. In that case, I wouldn't continue with the polish unless it was very cheap and you just wanted a relic. It's a real pity, but common. The heat from common house fires in Japan would often just heat the blade without any other signs (fittings could be replaced later) Regards, Brian
James Posted July 2, 2008 Author Report Posted July 2, 2008 Thanks for that Brian Here's a new message from him after I asked if he thought it was Saiha or just burnt in a fire: Hello James, I do not feel signs of SAIHA in this sword. I was saying that your sword was burnt in the house fire maybe. Because the blade is thin in the whole. Please leave everything trusting us. So it seems that he just thought the blade may have been burnt in a fire because it is getting a bit thin (tired), but I think it's just because it has received some sandpaper work. I do remember asking Brian Pedersen togi if he thought it was too tired to take another polish and he thought it was fine, so at least I am hopeful now that it can still be restored.
Guido Posted July 2, 2008 Report Posted July 2, 2008 James, I don't know who the polisher is you contacted, but many of the "regular" ones are struggling to make a living, and might polish a blade that isn't worth it. I have a feeling he wants to put an artificial (i.e. "polished") Hamon on it. I would advise against it; among other concerns, it's an investment you'll never recover. And since his opinion on the condition is significantly different from that of other Togishi, it's all the more a reason to politely ask him to return it to you. Just *my* opinion, your actual mileage may differ.
Brian Posted July 2, 2008 Report Posted July 2, 2008 I agree completely with Guido, and will add that I seriously doubt that he thinks it was burned merely because it is thin. He might be saying that it was easily detempered because of the thin blade, but he wouldn't assume something like that without checking or opening a window. Is this through Brian Pedersen, or someone else? Frankly, I wouldn't hold much hope if the guy does know blades, as detempering is not repairable. The sanding may have been done to hide the fact that there is no hamon, or maybe the polisher is mistaken and the hamon is there. Try and get a second opinion if possible. Brian
Mark Posted July 2, 2008 Report Posted July 2, 2008 you could ask for a "window" to be polished so the temper can be seen. Then make sure the agent clearly knows that, -- if the sword has no temper or appears retempered you want it returned as is. that way you can find out at minimum cost
James Posted July 2, 2008 Author Report Posted July 2, 2008 Thanks for all the help guys. I have made it absolutely clear that a polished or faked hamon is unacceptable. The agent has now told me that he showed the sword to a master polisher who then confirmed the existence of the hamon. It seems a bit strange that he would wait until now to tell me that the master polisher said it was OK, but the agent's English is not very good so there's that limiting factor in our communication.
Brian Posted July 3, 2008 Report Posted July 3, 2008 James, That's good news, good luck with it. I am not sure if you were getting an opinion from the polisher himself or just the agent making up his own mind. Seems very odd. Brian
pcfarrar Posted July 3, 2008 Report Posted July 3, 2008 Sounds very suspicious. Almost like the agent wanted you to write off the sword... For future polishing I would use http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/ as your agent. Perfect English, a good choice of polishers, and a top notch service.
James Posted August 14, 2008 Author Report Posted August 14, 2008 Well the agent contacted me today with photos of my newly polish wakizashi. I'm crushed at the fact that after all that was said to him, the sword received a cosmetic hamon. I cannot believe this, and I don't know what to do really. Any suggestions? Below is a photo of the eyesore I refer to as a hamon. Compare that with Jacques example and that'll leave no doubt in one's mind. Please, advise or suggestions are needed.
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