Fake Menuki

[Tanto54]

Folks,

 

I was shocked to see a modern, rubber molded copy made from a pair of authentic menuki that I recently purchased from Japan.  See the following post and string in the Auction Section:

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/22676-aoi-auction/

 

Here's the auction at Aoi:

 

http://www.sword-auction.jp/en/content/af17114-目貫：無銘雄鶏-menuki-mumeiunsignedrooster

 

I wanted to repost my comments here to warn our Tosogu Collectors who may not see the post in that section.

 

THIS IS A FAKE!!!  I am very sad to report that this is an exact, molded copy of a fine pair of Menuki that I own (and recently purchased).  Mine is definitely the original.  The one on Aoi shows signs of being copied using modern rubber mold techniques. Look carefully, even the tiny flaws on my very detailed pair are on the cast set from Aoi.  For example, look at the tiny dent on the Male's wing feather in the middle.  It is clearly a tiny dent on my set but is a blurry imperfection on the Aoi set (showing, along with many other similar points, that the Aoi set was copied from mine using recent modern techniques).  I did not buy my menuki from Aoi, but I did purchase them from a dealer in Japan.  I'm not accusing Aoi of being involved in the forgery (perhaps they bought it from someone else), but the set they are selling appears to be a modern, fake copy of my menuki.  I'm going to reproduce this in the Tosogu Section so everyone see it.  Be careful out there....

 

[Curran]

It wouldn't be the first time.

Quality control at Aoi slipping a bit.

 

As least these are more convincing that a few of the cast tsuba they've posted. You also have to be incredibly careful of many fakes on Yahoo!Japan these days.

A friend was fooled by a kozuka the other month, and it fooled me at first glance too... then we found 2 more just like it.

 

I can see Aoi easily being fooled by these in their current high volume small floorspace operations. Also, are they not moving some time this summer?

[John A Stuart]

Is it real or Memorex? What assurance is there that both sets are not copies? John

[Tanto54]

Dear John,

 

If you look closely at my set, you will see finely chiseled details that do not come out clean in the molding process.  In the gold set, you can see casting bubbles in a few places (but none on mine).  I've been doing this for many years, and I can assure you that mine is not a cast copy but the set on Aoi is a cast copy.

[PhoenixDude]

Are these fake? I recently ordered these from seiyudo.

[Tanto54]

Dear Jay,

 

PM sent about your menuki.

[Stephen]

We all might want to learn what to look for...JS

[Bugyotsuji]

Hmmm... in the light of Ford's last comment about how such castings have been around for more than 30 years, maybe we should take these problems to the seller (Aoi Art) instead of spreading them here like this? What would be most fair?

[Curran]

Hmmm... in the light of Ford's last comment about how such castings have been around for more than 30 years, maybe we should take these problems to the seller (Aoi Art) instead of spreading them here like this? What would be most fair?

 

I don't mean it as snark when I say that I wish you the best of luck with that.

I mean that specifically in regards to Aoi Arts.

 

While it would be nice to have the luxury of time and talent to write a Darcy B. or Arnold F. top down complete reply as to why I feel this way,

the practical zip gun version is to say previous experience is that Aoi Arts generally feels (1) It is product they will move one way or another and (2)  {Aoi Arts specific} while they may outwardly listen to you, they are inwardly dismissing you.

    You live there and might get more play. Still, prior personal experience and that observed from other's experiences with Aoi over the years makes me think it a very poor return on time and effort. Aoi is neither the best of shops, nor the worst of shops.

[Bugyotsuji]

I have never bought from them and have no axe to grind either way. Your description seems fair enough. I just felt it might be good to let them know what is coming down, or do you reckon they need to wake up and smell the coffee?

[Curran]

 do you reckon they need to wake up and smell the coffee?

 

They've been awake and snorted the coffee for a long time.

 

They are what they are. High volume, so lots to see for those of us Nihonto channel surfing.

Anything with high RPM, watch your fingers and don't lean over if wearing a tie.

[Stephen]

Yep its a dead end, not worth going down that street. Trust me i know from experience. 

[YOJIMBO]

Yep its a dead end, not worth going down that street. Trust me i know from experience. 

Do you mean Aoi Art shop ? 

[rkg]

I probably shouldn't comment, but...

 

I've had issues in the past with Aoi art with er, optimistically kantei'd pieces, doctored pieces,  as well as what I jokingly call "dealer lighting" used on items...  you can pm me if you want specific examples...  The bad part is that while they do appear to take stuff back, sometimes you don't put 2 and 2 together until years after you've bought the piece - and it gets a little hard to return things after that long...

 

That said, I'm sure there are worse sellers (as Curran points out, there's some horrific stuff on yahoo Japan being pawned off on the unwary), so...

 

But back to the OT - there are a LOT of these "copy" menuki out there - I'm not sure I'd ever buy gold menuki w/o being able to study them in hand (and maybe under the microscope) first - well, maybe if you're only paying scrap value, but...

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

[Ford Hallam]

About 15 years ago I bought, from Aoi-art,  a shinsakuto for practice. It came with a fairly non descript brass copy of a namban tsuba. Amusingly the iron original was on their site too. Coincidence?

[Stephen]

Simon, Yes. 

 

I would have been refunded if i had not altered the patina, but thats the breaks when one sends to restore to find out its cast copy.

Stated above Tsuruta san moves vast amount of tosogu, i know he cant cant sit down with each items for a hard look, should he have a employee thats in the know who does? I would think so, but who am i, a low end buyer who has never bought over 700$ tsuba, my luck the one time i went that high it was a copy.

I have marked it up to my lack of experience to not have given a closer look. Buyers bear part of the responsibility in a deal  yes?

[JohnTo]

Unfortunately fakes abound in all areas of art.  Once a certain object passes a price threshold the fakers move in, as they have for a 1000 years (Stowe school Yasutsuna tachi, Chinese ceramics).  In our field of Japanese swords and tosugu the signatures of many famous artisans  are doubful.  Omori Teruhide, and Kano Natsuo must have been producing about 10 tsuba a day, if you go by signatures.  With modern equipment and the limited knowledge that we collectors have with authentic pieces (how many of us have more than 10 good pieces in our collections?), the problem will get worse.  Thanks for the reminder and warning.  John

[Pete Klein]

One thing I can offer here as for fittings is that if you do not know or lack experience then only buy items with NBTHK Hozon, Tokubetsu Hozon or higher paper (no old papers).  This way you at least have a bit of an insurance policy that what you are getting the real deal. 

[PhoenixDude]

I bought a F/K set from them and when I got it they had touched the shakudo up a bit with permenant marker. it was so obvious because it went out of the lines and into the unpatinated area where i could just rub it off. also it wasnt on the listing images.

[Katsujinken]

Aoi is a nice resource in the modern age but I'll never buy from them. I'd rather bide my time and spend a bit more with a very small number of dealers I trust and with whom I have built a real relationship.

 

Aoi is like the Wal Mart of nihonto. And there's nothing wrong with that as long your eyes are wide open with regard to what you're buying. You can't walk into a Wal Mart and buy Versace, after all.

[PhoenixDude]

What dealers do you trust?

[Katsujinken]

What dealers do you trust?

Well, everyone has their favorites. I don't want to offend anyone through omission. But it's safe to say that individual dealers mentioned by name on NMB with a good reputation are a good place to start. A bit of searching reveals the core group pretty quickly.

 

But even with the pros, responsibility begins and ends with the buyer. In most cases, you are going to pay at least a little premium for their expertise and handling. How much you're comfortable with is up to you. :-)

 

But this is just what works for me.

[Pete Klein]

"But even with the pros, responsibility begins and ends with the buyer".

 

Yup.  Absolutely true and to the point.  I'm very glad you wrote this.

[TETSUGENDO]

Some simple advice- Study first, buy later. Remember, fortune favors the prepared.

 

-StevenK

[JohnTo]

I hope you have not maligned the Aoi, they may both be genuine and have been made by the lost wax process, which has been used since the bronze age.  I recently went to the V&A museum in London where they had a video showing the casting of a complex bronze figure using this process.  I have no knowledge of how Japanese tosogu artisans worked, but the process was common in China.  So here goes my description of the possible process of making a simple shaped menuki.

First step is to get hold of a suitable modelling material.  Clay or wax is often used in the west, but ivory offcuts from the netsuke makers would be ideal.  Glue the ivory to a metal or ceramic plate and carve out the face side of the menuki.  Cover the finished carving with a releasing agent and pour on plaster of Paris to make a mould.  Slip a knife under the metal/ceramic plate to free the mould.  Pour a small amount of wax into the mould and swill round until the inside surface of the mould is coated.  Repeat until the wax layer is of the correct thickness.  A bit like making a chocolate Easter egg.  Place small pieces of wood (matchsticks) at either end of the open side of the mould.  Press any metal grips sometimes found on the inside of menuki into the wax.  Fill the open mould with more plaster of Paris to make a single lump with the bits of wood sticking out.  Once dry, remove the bits of wood, place the completed mould upright and heat until all the wax has run out.  Pour in the molten metal of choice then smash the mould to free the menuki.  Cut off the metal from the casting hole and finish of the menuki as desired (guilding, engraving, inlay, etc).

The making of plaster of Paris moulds can then be repeated many times.  Of course, if the original carving becomes damaged the flaws will show up in all subsequent moulds and subsequent castings.  I ask the question ‘Why would a menuki maker not use this simple method for an object which has no complex undercutting?’  These guys had to make a living.  Although they may have used the same mould they could probably vary the metals used as well as the finishes.  The original carving would have been thrown away once it had started to deteriorate.  In my opinion, the average tosogu was not in the habit of making one-offs.  I have an iron sukashi tsuba which is an exact duplicate of one the NY Met.  As theirs was bought in 1946, I doubt if mine is a later forgery, just a second example of a successful design used by the maker (I’ll probably post it later).  Most bronze artists make multiple castings of their sculptures then destroy the original clay model.  Did you know that there about 28 bronze castings of Rodin’s ‘The Thinker’ not considered fakes.

Best regards, John

[Ford Hallam]

‘Why would a menuki maker not use this simple method for an object which has no complex undercutting?’

 

 

Because the traditional technique for menuki manufacture is uchidashi. This is both quicker, requires less metal, less fuel and results in less unrecoverable metal waste. Many menuki are of copper which is notoriously difficult, to impossible, to cast.

 

There is no evidence that lost wax casting was used in the Kinko traditions of Edo period Japan.

 

Here's a link to a photo essay showing the steps in creating some gold menuki by the uchidashi method.

My gold was somehow contaminated when I first melted it (the hazards of working iron and gold in the same space) which resulted in the ugly cracking you see. It took a little refining to clean out which is what green and red flux residues are about.

 

[Kurikata]

Mine are real or Fake ?

[Curran]

Ford- love the new avatar image you chose.

[Tanto54]

Dear John,

 

Believe me that I would not make these acquisitions without clear proof.  You have evidentially studied the lost wax method some, but it appears that you may not have studied modern vulcanized rubber molding and the wax injection method that is often used with the modern lost wax method of casting (and did not exist 50 years ago...).  If you were familiar with those techniques, you would be able to see that mine is the original and that a rubber mold was made from mine and then wax was injected into the mold allowing multiple copies of my menuki to be easily made.  This is clear because the chiseling and "original defects" in mine which are clearly not molded (e.g., dents, cuts and chisel marks) are clean and sharp in mine and while they also exist on the copy, they are smoothed over and rounded (showing that they are cast instead of original cuts).  In addition, casting bubbles are evident in the copies and there are none on mine.  With Brian's permission, I'll try to put together a pictorial explanation of the process and some of the telltale signs of casting over the next few days.  If it is useful, perhaps it can be added to the other reference materials on the NMB.

[Ford Hallam]

casting bubbles are evident in the copies and there are none on mine