My God... Where Does One Even Start...?

Stephen · May 15, 2017

As you grow in Nihonto...it will read

"My God when will this ever end"

Ken-Hawaii · May 16, 2017

I'm surprised that no one has recommended buying books, Judas, so you have some vague idea of why you're buying a specific blade. For US$100, you can buy a great beginning library that will answer a lot of the questions you haven't even asked yet...but will.

For suburi, I highly recommend using a wooden suburito (http://sdksupplies.com/stdhickory/sub1sm.jpg), rather than any Nihonto. The added weight & heft is intentional.

Ken

Adversary · May 16, 2017

However my advice is to purchase through the reputable dealers, many of which post here, and come away without any doubts and a fine example of what you're looking for.

That is certainly what i'd prefer to do.

Adversary · May 16, 2017

Your comment.

Quote.

" WHY... would anyone skimp on a tsuka, to put on a quality blade? Even IF the thing's not going to cut anymore... mats, people... quality is quality. This doesn't make sense to me."

You have answered your own query. 'Because it will not be swung or used anymore'.

In the day the fit of tsuka and nakago were extremely tight, the mekugi peg a locater, but not the only means of securing the blade.

The fashion of wanting to examine a blade, has invariably led to tsuka's being fashioned to be easily removed, thus not needing to meet the criteria needed for battle.

Within your price range, you will very probably get a later fitted nihonto blade.

My response to you is not in the aspect of 'cutting', but your stated intention for:

"

I want the best sword possible... best as in one i could USE. I'm buying as a 'working samurai' here.

I will likely do at least some practice with it... suburi, etc. "

Swinging a blade, as is performed in suburi, iaido and kendo, puts considerable strain on the blade, be it an alloy iaito or a steel sword, sharp or otherwise.

The maximum shearing force occurs at the hand guard, and at the mekugi during acceleration and deceleration.

When you understand the principle of forces exerted during the above, further advice on this topic will be unnecessary.

Ahhh yes... fashion over function. Definitely not my style.

Yup, i get it. I mean, aside from seeing some obviously old and beat tsuka out there (that no one in their right mind would swing around), i'd not thought of that. However, with new tsuka, i'd certainly not have thought there'd be a compromise made on quality/fit. Thats kind of (well, not 'kind of'... that IS) the whole heart of the katana obsession... the sheer and utter obsession with quality in the forging and creating of them. The very art we obsess over IS essentially a side-effect of the quality of construction. It saddens me to hear that this has been compromised so collectors can have an easier time of it. Really... it brings to mind the height of the collector car market in 2007 (before the crash) when these things were so valuable that the restorers were leaving the internals out of the engines... so as not 'risk' starting it up and hurting the numbers-matching block. They'd push them on and off trailers at shows. THAT... is just WRONG.

Anyways... perhaps not a popular opinion here... but i think you can have both. Fashion and function. In fact, it would seem to me dangerous to compromise on function. Think about it this way... to 99.9% of people out there, its a bloody sword. Life happens. It could get stolen, it could get lost in an estate sale, it could simply be bought by someone with more money than brains... and it could get swung around. I wouldn't want my name on one of these 'collector-friendly' tsukas. But maybe thats just me.

Adversary · May 16, 2017

This website is devoted to the preservation of nihonto and not the use of them in any way. I am curious why this hasn't exactly been pointed out.

Not a good idea to be using an antique.

Nihonto also covers gendaito and shinsakuto. There are a LOT of kenjustu/iaijustsu practitioners in Japan, the bulk of which likely use real Japanese swords... to swing, to cut with (mostly shinsakuto, probably some gendaito).

Perhaps my post was confused to mean i only want an old sword. I want a real, genuine Japanese sword. Old or new, and as i said in a more recent post, i'd probably prefer a newer one, for all the reasons covered above. I'd commission a brand new one if i could.

Adversary · May 16, 2017

As you grow in Nihonto...it will read

"My God when will this ever end"

Well i tell ya... my mind sure is getting a workout...

Adversary · May 16, 2017

I'm surprised that no one has recommended buying books, Judas, so you have some vague idea of why you're buying a specific blade. For US$100, you can buy a great beginning library that will answer a lot of the questions you haven't even asked yet...but will.

For suburi, I highly recommend using a wooden suburito (http://sdksupplies.com/stdhickory/sub1sm.jpg), rather than any Nihonto. The added weight & heft is intentional.

Ken

Oh... its been said, many times. Quite honestly, i dont have a lot of time to read. My reading list (for my MANY pursuits) is very long. If there were similar online resources, i'd be happy to learn of them.

Heh... that thing looks like a club. When my work here settles down, likely in the fall, there is a highly recommended school an hour away from me that i'm going to check out. I'm curious to know what opinions the members, or even sensei there would have on this stuff.

Jussi Ekholm · May 16, 2017

If you are buying a sword for training I would recommend holding off the purchase and buying a sword that you hold your hands first. The feel of the sword is very important for martial arts purposes. And of course I would recommend modern swords for training.

Adversary · May 16, 2017

If you are buying a sword for training I would recommend holding off the purchase and buying a sword that you hold your hands first. The feel of the sword is very important for martial arts purposes. And of course I would recommend modern swords for training.

Actually, something came up just yesterday... someone nearby (well, nearby enough) selling a pretty much brand new, still in box Bugei Old Pine. Thats the one i like, and its one of their cheaper swords, so its not going to cost me a lot. That leaves more money for something authentic down the line. The deal hasn't gone through yet, but i'm hopeful. By the sound of things i really should wait until i have at least 3-5K Usd before i start looking for nihonto.

I've also decided i'd like one in shirasaya and GOOD polish, so i can assure its mounted properly, and well... to my tastes. Just like blades, there are a lot of killer tsuba/fuchi-kashira/menuki one could put together for a cool, themed piece. That also lets me buy in stages, again, ending up with a better overall product. In the meantime... i can get to know who the good dealers are and learn more about the smiths themselves.

PNSSHOGUN · May 16, 2017

The Bugei Old Pine is a fine sword, especially the early models using the high alloy steel.

Marius · May 16, 2017

Perhaps my post was confused to mean i only want an old sword. I want a real, genuine Japanese sword. Old or new, and as i said in a more recent post, i'd probably prefer a newer one, for all the reasons covered above. I'd commission a brand new one if i could.

Well, this one is above your budget, but it has been made by one of the few contemporary Japanese sword smiths who forge functional weapons and who do not care about the looks. (BTW, I own a few sword by Kojima):

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/sword7.html

In any case, Kojima's site is worth having a look because of all the information:

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/information.html

Curran · May 16, 2017

If you are buying a sword for training I would recommend holding off the purchase and buying a sword that you hold your hands first. The feel of the sword is very important for martial arts purposes. And of course I would recommend modern swords for training.

+1 to this.

Fishing pole, tennis racket, rapier with the right grip and play, etc...

Adversary · May 16, 2017

Well, this one is above your budget, but it has been made by one of the few contemporary Japanese sword smiths who forge functional weapons and who do not care about the looks. (BTW, I own a few sword by Kojima):

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/sword7.html

In any case, Kojima's site is worth having a look because of all the information:

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/information.html

Heh... definitely not my style... and yeah, a bit spendy yet, but the site looks neat. I'll give that a look. Thanks.

Yeah... and i think its just a case of the universe sending me CLEAR signals... that its not meant to be. Not right now anyways. The deal i just alluded to fell through... yet another flake. I got so attached to the idea of something cheap and decent that i even called up Bugei... and they dont even stock swords anymore. If i order now... i can have something in my hands by FALL. I give up.

Adversary · May 16, 2017

+1 to this.

Fishing pole, tennis racket, rapier with the right grip and play, etc...

I agree, absolutely... 100%. I even got into an argument with Bugei several years ago about this, asking if i could have the pick of the new shipment... and they said 'they're all the same'. A sword... even a cheaper Chinese smithed (i did say smithed at least) blade to a lesser extent... has a soul. They're NOT all the same.

Thing is... how do you do this when everything is bought online? Can an expert look at the pictures, calculate the measurements and guess accurately at what a sword will FEEL like in the hand?

Kronos · May 16, 2017

I think there's many thoughts going around in your head and simplifying it all could be beneficial to narrow down your search criteria.

Firstly I'd ask if a functional sword for swinging is a must and take it from there?

Dr Fox · May 17, 2017

Judas

To locate a 'soul' in a mass produced Chinese sword, is pushing the boundaries of probability.

Sword soul, is only in reference to swords of the Samurai.

It is accepted to be present in nihonto blades.

This belief is singulary Japanese.

Adversary · May 18, 2017

I think there's many thoughts going around in your head and simplifying it all could be beneficial to narrow down your search criteria.

Firstly I'd ask if a functional sword for swinging is a must and take it from there?

Oh its pretty narrow by now. It seems strangely an unpopular opinion here, of all places, but i'll never waver from the 'a sword is still a sword' mindset. Even if i dont actually use it, i should be able to, and without a shred of reservation. Though i'll still remain open to them, i think i've more or less taken the real antiques off the table. Initially, my hesitation towards gendaito and shinsakuto stemmed more from the lack of smith ratings than anything else. Now i see people still seem to know them, and where they stand, and i see even some sellers (aoi) will make up their own sort of ratings (if i read that correctly in another thread). I'll take each piece as it comes to me, and do my research from there.

The main issue i have is that when i initially budgeted for this endeavor, i was still in the Bugei/top-shelf Chinese forged sword mindset, or maybe a modern (non Japanese smith - Przemek, Raw, etc.) custom. I never really even entertained the idea of nihonto... as last i checked (probably about 15 years ago), they started at 10K. So... still not quite within reach for me... but not $6000 away either...

Adversary · May 18, 2017

Judas

To locate a 'soul' in a mass produced Chinese sword, is pushing the boundaries of probability.

Sword soul, is only in reference to swords of the Samurai.

It is accepted to be present in nihonto blades.

This belief is singulary Japanese.

I could say the same thing about cars. But then you get people telling me that an 80's Volvo or a 90's Chevy has personality. So... perhaps not a 69 Boss Nine... but something? Haha. I've been told that despite the strict QC, you can take a handful of Bugei swords.... same model, same size... and they all have a different feel. Some artists (not necessarily sword smiths) would argue that anything made by hand, by a professional, or artist, can have a soul. Of course... the nihonto... is what they all aspire to...

Some of you guys that have had in your hands hundreds of real, and nice nihonto must have a certain few that come to mind... ones with a definite feel... so to speak.

I'll disagree on the last part though. While i understand that the Japanese took this to a whole new level (as they do with everything), I'm sure other cultures have had smiths forge swords with certain characteristics, or purposes in mind. It was a far more romantic and mystical age, way back when these were high technology weapons.

Dr Fox · May 18, 2017

How did we get to comparing cars, to Chinese modern swords, in a 'Nihonto Discussion' topic?.

Judas with all due respect, I will leave you with others, who are better able to continue with you on your quest.

Stephen · May 18, 2017

Ah... Romancing the sword

Kronos · May 18, 2017

From what you've said (and more importantly haven't said) a nihonto would be a waste of your money and you should stick to a bugei etc. It'd be like buying a $5,000 bottle of whisky to mix with coke.

PhoenixDude · May 18, 2017

I dont mean to pressure you or anything but I really think this sword is exactly what you are looking for. Its antique, made in Japan, and was originally made for iado practice in the first place.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/322490797869

Adversary · May 19, 2017

How did we get to comparing cars, to Chinese modern swords, in a 'Nihonto Discussion' topic?.

Judas with all due respect, I will leave you with others, who are better able to continue with you on your quest.

Its a discussion. Discussions take many different paths, with many different people to come to a point. I think its been pretty clear. Thats what i love about the internet forum concept, often its the off-topic tangents where i'll learn the most about the topic at hand.

Adversary · May 19, 2017

From what you've said (and more importantly haven't said) a nihonto would be a waste of your money and you should stick to a bugei etc. It'd be like buying a $5,000 bottle of whisky to mix with coke.

(Sigh...) Well, lets call it a day on this one then. Clearly there has been a breakdown in communications, as is far too common with the internet... despite my tremendous efforts to be as explicit and clear as i can be (and i'm good at this). You could not be further off the mark. I really appreciate those who are trying to help me, and i am learning. We'll figure this out.

Funny enough, on the topic of good whisky, i had a nice pour of Redbreast... the Masamune of Irish whisky's tonight. I'm definitely a classic (true Scottish only) single malt guy, but damn... i highly recommend it!

Adversary · May 19, 2017

I dont mean to pressure you or anything but I really think this sword is exactly what you are looking for. Its antique, made in Japan, and was originally made for iado practice in the first place.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/322490797869

Yes... like i said before, it hits off most of the boxes nicely, but at the end of the day, i have to like what i'm looking at. I like simple, not even sold on bo-hi really... let alone horimono. But its the sanskrit bits... to me anyways, I cant do it. it just doesn't look right.

PNSSHOGUN · May 19, 2017

I dont mean to pressure you or anything but I really think this sword is exactly what you are looking for. Its antique, made in Japan, and was originally made for iado practice in the first place.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/322490797869

I think this is a really good idea for the OP, the price also lets him easily buy a modern production sword as well.

drbvac · May 22, 2017

http://nihontoart.com/shop/katana-signed-kanefusa-in-koshirae/

In Canada as well = great dealer =- good friend - all blades are papered - watch his site

Adversary · May 22, 2017

http://nihontoart.com/shop/katana-signed-kanefusa-in-koshirae/

In Canada as well = great dealer =- good friend - all blades are papered - watch his site

I saw that, and yeah... i really actually like that one, but i definitely want a katana, not a wakizashi. Plus... even if that price was in Canadian (which i assume its not)... well out of my budget.

AndreasU · June 5, 2017

Hi Judas,

I can understand some of your thoughts but let me try to explain it that way.

We are talking in this board about "historic antique swords" In the day these swords were made, their main purpose was to fulfill a task, protect the daimyos prpperty through the "employed" Samurai.

Then the swords were handed over generation by generation, have been used more or less but have been preserved and polished a few times (most of them at least, easiliy recognisable as "flatter" the Ji got... latest then, the main purpose, beeing a weapon, was lost more and more as the sword got weaker and weaker.

I am quite confident that most of the current swords available, yet high priced swords, are even weaker than a newly made modern one simply by the fact that they are old!

But this doesn't matter for us as we mainly appreciate the skill and the craftmanship. Undoubtedly any "old" Japanese" sword will be more reliable then any old European sword you might find from the same age... if there is any in a healthy condition....

So your idea to "use" them is that far away from beeing realistic as can be. Your comparison with cars is not even close enough as most of the engines still used in US made production cars are simply old-fashioned technology based ones where improvements are just minor. Then it is better to have a look into the Japanese engine market where there is a lot more innovation if you want to compare this or of course into the german made engines

To get a spare part for an old mid 50th 8cylinder US engine is a simple task where it is nearly impossible to find a complete authentic Saya with tsuba, menuki, and Kogai that was done for the specific sword in Edo or earlier. Simply because due to profit situation most of the Japanese resellers have disassembled these Sayas (mounting) to get most profit possible by seperately selling the Kogai and Tsuba. AOI art is a pretty example sometimes. Just some days ago he was "advertising" a stunning sword with matching Saya where it was obvious that the Tsuba was in best case to be described a washer......

Having said this, If you want to have a "real" Japanese sword that is as close as possible to the "old" Japanese swords (collectors items) have a look out for Gendaito made in the WWII using Tamahagane (no mass production ones) In my opinion, even a highly skilled swordsmith did them, they are no collectibles as they are done far after the last real Samurai's exist (pre 1868) and have in my eyes no "soul or spirit" left, simply said, they have NO HISTORY!

This sounds drastically but is my way of appreciating these Swords.

Even I like to look at a modern Gassan sword and truly he is a stunning Smith, they are "just" representing the tradition but will never have the same meaning any more than pre 1868 made ones. If I had the money to buy a sword in the price range of a modern made Gassan one or a antique made Yasutsugu, I would always go for the Yasutsugu or any other valuable Smith. This just as example.

So to use a gendaito for any practice will bring you as close possible to what you are looking for but will net destroy any value or valuable Sword.

Regarding the full set of "mountings" (I will leave it with this, for better explanation have a look here: http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/nihonto.htm

please keep in mind, as all the pre writers did already, NO ANY of the historic mountings that will be offered with a sword, will be possible to be used as they simply will fall apart!

They are mostly not matching, seppas missing, Tsuka weak, Habaki maybe for the sword and so on....They are simply old! like an unrestored old Ford A type with good paintwork. It might drive but will not last long...

It was normal that in the lifetime of a sword, the mountings where renewed frequently as humidity, wear and tear happened.

If you want to have a full mounting newly made for a sword, you will easy spend more than 2.000 US$ just for this, likely even more if you will order one in Japan.

The chinese junk offered is a "lookalike" but not nearly there you need to have it when you want to practice!!! This simply is dangerous!

Simply said, would you expose a Rembrandt to rain and sunshine and carry it with you? Or would you go for an artistic reprint instead?