Nlf Gunto Discussion

[John C]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

The most glaring discovery, to me, is that the painted numbers are all under 100!  There were over 8,700 souvenir swords made, so I'd expect the painted numbers to show a much bigger range than this.

Bruce:

As you know, I'm tracking assembly numbers so thanks for the chart. In addition, if they are actually assembly numbers, I would not expect too much variation. Indeed, the array of numbers so far is starting to make me wonder what their true purpose is. Not pertinent to this particular chart, however I think the assembly numbers for souvenirs all use black paint.

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

3 minutes ago, John C said:

I think the assembly numbers for souvenirs all use black paint.

Yes, I noticed that too.

 

I’m going to start scanning stainless kaigunto blades to see what their numbering is like. I did a quick check yesterday, and found one with a four digit black painted number, which is more in line with what I would expect, considering how many blades they made during the war.

[John C]

3 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

found one with a four digit black painted number, which is more in line with what I would expect,

So do you think these are assem-bly numbers? Or could they possibly be assemb-ler numbers?

John C.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

That is still the big question, isn’t it? I’m away from home and don’t have access to that photo with multiple blades lined up all painted with white numbers. If you get a chance to look at that, see if you can tell if they are working on fittings, or maybe polishing the blade. Might help in figuring out if the numbers are painted by the factory, or by the fitters. 
 

 

[John C]

Bruce:

A couple of interesting things stand out in that photo. Firstly, all of the numbers are in English and written in the same orientation...so by the same person?

Secondly, I think they are doing a final polish (no fittings around them, jars of something next to them, and thumbs appear to be rubbing the blade). 

Still unsure which came first. The blades could have been fitted prior to final polish (to remove any marks or fingerprints) or they are still waiting fitting after final polish, though it would normally be the former rather than the latter. 

John C.

[Jcstroud]

Are you guys talking about this photo?

[John C]

Yes.

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

I was hoping the photo would have some more clues, but you can see under the first woman’s right arm, under her elbow, it looks like a saya and tsuba. So, overall, the photo is inconclusive to me.

[John C]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

it looks like a saya and tsuba

I see it now. Then I think definitely final polish before delivery.

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, John C said:

final polish before delivery.

Since I don't understand factory/forge vs sword shop procedures - do you think this was in the fittings process, then?  Do you think the numbers were applied by the shop, not the factory?  But after saying that 'out loud', in my mind, it still isn't posible to know.  What if the numbers were applied by the factory, and the fittings shop simply used those numbers on their fittings?

[John C]

I think you are right that we just can't pin it down yet. It would be nice to know if those ladies were in a shop or in a factory. Long hallway like a factory but I don't know anything about what a shop may have looked like. Based on the numbering style and position, I still think the same person wrote them. But where, I have no clue.

John C.

[Jcstroud]

I think one aspect up until now has been largely ignored is the presence of green paint in the area of anchor stamp and its significance.since almost all have it as well

[John C]

The mei on my Kanehide gendaito has the green assembly number paint inside as well. So clearly applied after the sword was finished. But when, where, by whom, and for what exact reason are the questions I am trying to answer through a study of assembly numbers. Nothing interesting to report so far. The only patterns I have identified to this point are that 1) some smiths (or shops; or factories) used the same paint color consistently and 2) the number of digits seems to be consistent (usually 2,3, or4 with some having a katakana or western letter prefix).  

 

John C.

[Jcstroud]

7 minutes ago, John C said:

The mei on my Kanehide gendaito has the green assembly number paint inside as well. So clearly

Question for you John : is your Kanehide a souvenir sword or wartime gendaito? Would like to compare nakagos for the sake of the study thanks.

[John C]

9 minutes ago, Jcstroud said:

is your Kanehide a souvenir sword or wartime gendaito?

It's a gendaito made in 1944. I am not 100 percent sure of the regs imposed by the Occupying forces, however I think it would have been illegal for someone not under contract by the Army to hand forge a sword right after the war. I think that may have changed around 1952 or so? Not sure. 

John C.

[Jcstroud]

Personnally I dont think the US Army restricted the type of forging after the war but the only authorised forge allowed to operate as you know was Tenshozan Tanrenjo and their specialty was Fujiwara Kanenaga formula antirust special steel. That doesnt mean the defiant backwoods boys were not still doin their thang.

.

[Jcstroud]

On 5/26/2023 at 9:09 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Since I don't understand factory/forge vs sword shop procedures - do you think this was in the fittings process, then?  Do you think the numbers were

Now I am going to take the analytical approach to answer the questions you have:1. Fitting of tsuba wood,seppas,fuchi, oseppas,andthe drilling of the mekugi-ana must happen before the tsuka can be wrapped not to mention installation of the kabuto-gane.likely they were working in lots of 100.the process is similar to fitting metal taper pins in machinery shafts.it makes sense that  the fitted parts had to be marked for reassembly after the tsuka wrap.to keep the freshly plated parts from getting mixed up.

[John C]

This is what makes the whole assembly number thing interesting to me. The fittings are made for a particular sword so they need to keep track. But with the possible exception of souvenir swords, the numbers on the blade usually do not match the numbers on the fittings. Lots of reasons for this - damage to original fittings usually - but why do replacement fittings all have the same number? If the entire set were remade, I would think the numbers would match the blade; if the parts were piece-meal (use whichever one fits), I would expect there to be a variety of fitting numbers on each blade.

 

I also think the reason we see consistent numbers on souvenir blades and fittings goes back to damage - not being used during the war means less damage and less chance of needing, or even finding, replacements.

 

I just think there is something more to the "assembly number" thing than what we currently know. And I get that I am the lone voice in the wilderness on this, however I would like to complete the puzzle - even if I know what the picture already looks like.

John C.

[Jcstroud]

We could all be overthinking this thing.normally on documented numbers matching swords using3 different number systems you can be reasonably assured the assembly is original.

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, John C said:

But with the possible exception of souvenir swords, the numbers on the blade usually do not match the numbers on the fittings. Lots of reasons for this - damage to original fittings usually - but why do replacement fittings all have the same number? If the entire set were remade, I would think the numbers would match the blade; if the parts were piece-meal (use whichever one fits), I would expect there to be a variety of fitting numbers on each blade.

And we have seen plenty with piece-meal mixes, too!  I'm remembering a conversation about the field repair teams.  One well documented one reported back they had repaired 15,000 swords (in a year? don't remember) and most of them had tsuka damage.  In general, that says to me that there were LOTS of swords that wound up in replacement fittings to some degree or another.  Might explain why so many in your current survey have blade numbers that don't match fittings.

 

Edit: found one disuccion, and the number was 2,000 in 9 months on this Warrelics Thread.

 

"During a particular 9 month period he repaired more than 2,000 ranging in age from a variety of historical periods: 25% were Koto, 60% Shinto or Shin Shinto, and 15% were Gendaito. Of these, only 3 had been damaged in battle meaning that most of them (70%) had been damaged in training or through mishandling.

The types of damage they suffered is very instructive. Scabbards required the least attention: about 10% of scabbards had been broken or split --- a problem primarily caused by the stress of incorrect unsheathing or re-sheathing the swords. Blades, of course, were a problem, but not the most numerous problem. About 30% of the swords suffered bent or broken blades. For the most part, these were the swords that had actually been used in battle. Naruse was shocked at the high rate of blade failures. The main problem, however, was not the blades. It was the sword handles. A full 60% of the swords needed to be repaired because their handles had broken. Worse, Naruse reported that almost every sword he examined need to have the handle's mekugi (retaining pins) replaced. Even without severe use, the mekugi quickly wore out or became damaged."

 

And like JC just said, all matching means the gunto made it through the war intact/original.

[Jcstroud]

Are we talking about souvenir swords or late war guntos? The topic of naval landing forces swords that saw combat? The reason I ask the question : is it  likely that a souvenir sword would have mixed. number fittings if all was original and unmodified?

[Jcstroud]

Please keep in mind that what happened on the day of manufacture can only be known with an untouched sword.plain and simple.over time  all things change.Change being one of  the few true constants.

[John C]

43 minutes ago, Jcstroud said:

Are we talking about souvenir swords or late war guntos?

All of the above I should think. It seems the longer a sword has been around, the least likely it will have matching numbers. This lends credence to the observation that souvenir swords, for the most part, have matching numbers because they were not used in combat.

And by matching numbers I mean the painted nakago numbers matching the numbers stamped on the fittings. 

John C.

[Jcstroud]

Reminds me of work: If it aint broke dont fix it!

[Bruce Pennington]

Update on the Souvenir Chart, with a mumei, large anchor, blade, shaped nakago jiri.  Fittings are all navy except for army menugi & haikan.  Plus navy kabutogane has no floral designs, just plain edges.

OH - and duplicate # 45,

[Jcstroud]

Does it have any stamped nunbers or modified roman numerals? would like to see them to compare.likely they were working in lots of 100 maybe.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

3 minutes ago, Jcstroud said:

stamped nunbers

Fitting numbers match the painted number:

[Jcstroud]

Appears to be the same stamp what do you think?

[Bruce Pennington]

Maybe I'm being picky, but the top, horizontal stroke of the first 5 seems to curve upward, while the bottom one is completely flat.  Also the bottom 4 has a horizontal stroke at the bottom, but I don't see that on the top one.

 

Is the top one from our Toyosuke 45?

[Jcstroud]

To compare I think the 4 is different