Nlf Gunto Discussion

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks to Thomas, @Kiipu, for finding this old post at Warrelics.  This souvenir has Navy fittings on the tsuka, fuchi, and koiguchi, but Army on the rest of the saya.  You'll see, while mumei, the nakago jiri is well shaped.  I bet Tenshozan was using surplus parts and shaping nakago well in the first few souvenirs, and then got less picky about finishing them when the surplus ran out.

 

[Jcstroud]

In a final thought concerning a possible hidden  message of the " souvenir" swords could be this: in the end the the cherry blossoms have fallen and the grand expectations have come to an abrupt halt. But after all is finished our honor and our dignity is retained for generations to come.  Respectfully yours.    John

  

P.S.  I was speaking in reference to kiri hot cut  nakago and lack of  cherry blossoms on the kabuto gane.

[Bruce Pennington]

14 minutes ago, Jcstroud said:

in the end the the cherry blossoms have fallen and the grand expectations have come to a heated and abrupt halt. But after all is finished our honor and our dignity is retained for generations to come.

Quite the poet, John!  Hope you don't mind my adding that to the end of the Souvenir article?

[Jcstroud]

3 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Quite the poet, John!  Hope you don't mind my adding that to the end of the Souvenir article?

Would be an honor, hey Bruce question?  :Ohmura San spoke of the Tachi of the Kamakura special case March 1945 "extraordinary special case of the gunto.  Suspension mount to one, abolished plating of metal fittings brass,the pattern,the knotloop and the springclip"   could he be speaking of the origin of this style mounting?

[Bruce Pennington]

Sounds like it to me, John.  Without reading his post, I can't say exactly what he precisely meant by that, but it sounds like our last-year-of-the-war swords made with looser mil specs.

[jeep44]

I just got the Plimpton book today. These souvenir swords are presented as "Navy/Army late war Officers Grade"

[PNSSHOGUN]

That's unfortunate to hear, it seems some of the information presented has been recycled from the out of date Fuller & Gregory books. The pictures and presentation of the book look absolutely stunning, the authors really did a great job in that regard.

[John C]

2 hours ago, jeep44 said:

These souvenir swords are presented as "Navy/Army late war Officers Grade"

Wow. I cannot believe anyone who has held one of these in his or her hands would believe it was for a war-time officer. Thin, cheap, and gaudy parts, cheaply lacquered saya, and no sakura on the kabutogane? Even late war, these should have been built to at least withstand some form of combat. In Plimpton's defense, however, he obviously did not have access to the documentation we have today on these.

Just my opinion, others may differ.

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

52 minutes ago, John C said:

In Plimpton's defense, however, he obviously did not have access to the documentation we have today on these.

And that's the bottom line.  Speaking from experience, the minute you publish something - it's already out of date!  Factually speaking, his description is accurate to what one sees - an Army/Navy mix of late-war quality parts/design.  

 

I've already heard there are other items that are, in today's experience, inaccurately labeled, too.  But, I'm looking forward to mine arriving Monday!  Seems to be quite a photographic work of art!

[Jcstroud]

9 hours ago, John C said:

Wow. I cannot believe anyone who has held one of these in his or her hands would believe it was for a war-time officer. Thin, cheap, and gaudy parts, cheaply lacquered saya, and no sakura on the kabutogane? Even late war, these should have been built to at least withstand some form of combat. In Plimpton's defense, however, he obviously did not have access to the documentation we have today on these.

Just my opinion, others may differ.

John C.

I think one should judge each sword on its individual merits rather than condemn the group as a whole.If you dont like yours you can send it to me ! 

I would gladly receive it. They are not all the same. Any antique that can shave your beard with ease after almost 80 years  deserves  respect.not all  are showpieces .they are a part of history. Oh by the way I would  not hesitate to trust mine in battle should the need arise.

[Bruce Pennington]

I didn’t take his comment that way. He was referring to the light weight, flimsiness of all the fittings. When you hold one in your hand, it is clearly not a war weapon.  I don’t exactly want to use the word “cheap“, but I struggle to find a better word for the fittings.

 

I own one, and value it for its place in history. But I know what John was talking about.

[Jcstroud]

I guess I would have  to have another in hand to compare but I find nothing lightweight or flimsy about mine in fact it is quite weighty. But all are not the same .Hey I have a good idea lets have a shinsa for militaria.!!!

[John C]

8 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

I think one should judge each sword on its individual merits rather than condemn the group as a whole.

Just to clarify. The issue in this case is not with the sword...it is what it is. The issue is when a respected collector labels the souvenir sword as "late war". This makes our jobs much harder when trying to add validity to the concept of a post-war "souvenir." And it surprises me that Plimpton would do so. He held enough swords to know the difference between a "parade-quality" sword and one built for battle. I think to him, it was an enigma like it was to us before all of Bruce's (et al.) hard work. Remember, however, I am speaking about the entire rig and not just the blade.

But the facts are that the fittings are not made for combat. Indeed, someone of authority (I cannot remember who) said that if the handle (and presumably the fittings) is not strong, the sword is useless. Moreover, as evidence of how the Japanese felt about the quality of their weapons, the late Nick Komiya talking about the Rinjiseishiki noted:  

"The printed memo further explained that the sword 'was made to be robust and practical in both blade as well as exterior fittings, based on lessons from the Incident'”. 

So in my uneducated opinion, the problem is the sword's designation in the book as "late-war" and the impression that the sword was somehow made for combat rather than as a souvenir for G.I.'s. 

John C.

[Jcstroud]

The truth is we really dont know the truth  however,we know there were at times swords made to fill the need with what they had to work with. We do know that the so called souvenir swords existed because there was a demand for such. The problem is we dont really know how to descern one from the other .Plimpton I am sure could not either.

[Jcstroud]

P.s. I suggest you read the ohmura study. I am sure Mr. Plimpton did.

[Baka Gaijin]

Good morning Gentlemen,

 

A few weeks ago I mentioned the Japan Sword Catalogue and its contents relating to Marine Corps swords and Gunto lookalikes.

 

I thought the catalogue was lost, but I've just found an old disk with some images from the catalogue.

 

If this is of any use, here they are:

There are more images if you need them.

[John C]

Thank you Malcom. Some of that is still currently on their website, though it is unclear if they are currently making and selling it. 

John C.

[Jcstroud]

It seems to me that what they are or were selling recently are traditionally made kai gunto replicas of high quality construction with no deviation from Naval Military specifications. I doubt they have any arsenal stamps though.

 

 

[Jcstroud]

Japan Sword Company according to this email answers the questions....No

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks for shaking the rust off my memory, John!  I had written to the Japan Sword Company asking about the souvenir swords.  That was their reply.  It was very difficult communicating with them.  At first they didn't reply at all.  Then there was some messed up, miscommunication.  The exchange you posted was the final attempt.  Bob Colemen on this Warrelics NLF Gunto Dissusion, felt I was getting the "go away Gijin" reply.  His post:

 

"I think you have received a foreigner it is none of your business reply. I believe the oral tradition from four individuals I met is enough of the truth. When I visited Japan Sword in the 80's, they were selling replicas of all forms of WW2 era swords and dirks(without a sharp steel blade).
It is always a mistake to apply Western standards when dealing with individuals from another culture."

 

 

[Brian]

I also recall someone asking them, and the short answer is they have no idea. They don't worry too much about their wartime activities and I don't think they have any interest in research them. Understandable really.

[John C]

5 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I had written to the Japan Sword Company asking about the souvenir swords.

Bruce: Do you know if the Tenshozan factory is still around? It was with Tenshozan (Mr. Yao) that the 8th Army had the souvenir contract. I wonder if they would have any records from 1945-55?

John C.

[Jcstroud]

On 12/3/2018 at 12:39 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Significant find! One of these for sale that comes with it's bring-back certificate. It's written out by the 8th Army Exchange and says it's a souvenir not a war weapon. By all appearances, it was sold by the PX!

 

I think these were being made as part of MacArthur's post-war effort to keep businesses running.

 

You can see more of it on this thread: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=984036

Hey Bruce this may be the break you have looking for !!! A Toyosuke signed,souvenir sword with the bag and tassle that appear the same as the PX purchased sword.on page 1 of topic .from the Japanese Naval Sword Manufacturing Company  A.K.A. Tenshozan Tanrenjo,Kamakura  IMHO    

[Bruce Pennington]

15 hours ago, John C said:

Bruce: Do you know if the Tenshozan factory is still around? It was with Tenshozan (Mr. Yao) that the 8th Army had the souvenir contract. I wonder if they would have any records from 1945-55?

John C.

I have been unable to find out.  @mecox - Mal, I read your write up in your Navy article, but it doesn't mention it's current status.  Do you know?

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

A Toyosuke signed,souvenir sword with the bag and tassle that appear the same as the PX purchased sword

Good find John!  Adding it to the files.  And chance of a photo showing the full painted number?  It looks like 36?

[Jcstroud]

On 12/3/2018 at 12:39 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Significant find! One of these for sale that comes with it's bring-back certificate. It's written out by the 8th Army Exchange and says it's a souvenir not a war weapon. By all appearances, it was sold by the PX!

 

I think these were being made as part of MacArthur's post-war effort to keep businesses running.

 

You can see more of it on this thread: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=984036

Hey Bruce this may be the break you have looking for !!! A Toyosuke signed,souvenir sword with the bag and tassle that appear the same as the PX purchased sword.on page 1 of topic .from the Japanese Naval Sword Manufacturing Company  A.K.A. Tenshozan Tanrenjo,Kamakura  IMHO    looks like36 to me also could not get a better picture of the nakago,could only download the images available.

[Jcstroud]

Added for comparison purposes.       

[Jcstroud]

Interesting thought about the Px acquired souvenir  blades is that I have yet to see one that was not "anti-rust aka stainless without the anchor in circle stamp , I guess they are not good enough for us but good enough for them perhaps.given their dark disdain for non traditionally made blades but later changed their opinion after Having seen the excellent examples such as Kazuichi and Ichiro Hattori ,Fujiwara Kanenaga and more but the purists dont want to hear that.

[Bruce Pennington]

I've updated the Souvenir sword article.  Brian has it and should have the update posted within a day.  I've updated it on my substack link already:

The Mysterious NLF Gunto - A Souvenir - by Bruce Pennington (substack.com)

 

An observant reader caught a glaring error!  In discussing the PX souvenir certificate, I had looked at the wrong line when typing the name of the sailor.  The actual name is Lt J.G. Benjamin N. Kaplan, not Patrick.  Patrick was the trooper carrier ship he was stationed on - USS General E. D. Patrick.

 

Give Brian a day before trying to download the update.

[Bruce Pennington]

Posting here, rather than the Toyosuke thread, as the chart is of all souvenir swords I have on file (45).  The most glaring discovery, to me, is that the painted numbers are all under 100!  There were over 8,700 souvenir swords made, so I'd expect the painted numbers to show a much bigger range than this.  There are 4 duplicated numbers:  66, 58, 79, and 89.  One of the 89's, from @IJASWORDS has an 811 painted on the reverse side, so his has both 89 and 811.  I checked several, and the norm was to paint the numbers on the mei/stamped side, and his 89 is on that side.

 

I had assumed before charting, that the finished, shaped nakago-jiri would all be on named blades, but around half were and half were mumei.  I also assumed the small anchor stamps would be on the signed blades, but there were just as many large anchors on signed blades.  

 

Another discovery was that there were 3 blades with both large and small anchor stamps: 

Mumei #9

Mumei #30

Takeyasu #40

 

I'm attaching the chart for anyone interested.

Souvenir Chart.docx