Nlf Gunto Discussion

[Jcstroud]

One more for evaluation

[Bruce Pennington]

13 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

One more

John,

An interesting example.  Everything about it fits the souvenir configuration.  Quite unusual though, is the seeming wear on the tsuka.  The ito shows darkening of hand oils, and the same' under the kabutogane shows wear.  Don't know what to think about that.

[Jcstroud]

One other thing I noticed is the kabutogane does not have the cherry blossoms like others these areas appear to have been filed and wirebrushed  ages ago, the same appears to be deteriorating from age .and perhaps a few hard knocks. Thank you for your patience its seems I have left no stones unturned. Thank you all.who knows maybe we will figure out who was Toyosuke.?  Oh well keep the faith.

[John C]

1 hour ago, Jcstroud said:

kabutogane does not have the cherry blossoms

JC:

Not to worry about the kabutogane. It is one of the hallmarks of the souvenir sword. The pic is of mine for reference.

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

Ok John & John!  Now you got me going into something new.  I'm out of time and will update when I get back, but going through the first quarter of my files, looks like the souvenirs with the Toyokawa stamp on the nakago, all (so far) have the smooth kabutogane.  Nakago without anchor stamp seem to be in fittings with textured kabutogane, some with sakura & leaves, some without, but still textured.

 

Very speculative here - but what if the textured kabutogane, missing Toyokawa stamps, were made by the Japanese Sword Co.?

[John C]

5 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Nakago without anchor stamp seem to be in fittings with textured kabutogane,

I might be misunderstanding this, however I am not sure we can tell anything by the textured kabutogane. I did some quick research and found a few (4 or 5) that were stamped and had textured kabutogane (including mine). I did notice, however, that none of the kabutogane of the 11 I found had sakura leaves. Then again, I only found ones that were stamped. 

FYI: I had searched for "Toyokawa stamp" and just "kai gunto" and looked at every sword that was a souvenir. Found 10 of them; all being marketed as ww2 navy kai gunto.

On a separate though related issue, I think a lot of the confusion over these is perpetuated by what Fuller and Gregory had written (see pic). Would it be possible to contact them (or the publisher) about a book revision?

John C.

[Jcstroud]

Thanks Johnc for the feedback.  one thing I had I just noticed after inspecting the  kabutogane with a magnifying glass the aged remnants of the army brown paint was there and after scratching it with my thumbnail it easily exposed the brass ontop and the sides.! The sides textured  but the top,bottom and pommel surfaces smooth and polished brass  that was worn thin on the pommel end.  The tsuba measured 77×65 mm for comparison purposes.

[Jcstroud]

To respond to fuller and gregory,s pg 138  I agree that their assessment in combination with the ohmura study pertaining to kamakura extraordinary special case gunto mounts indicate late war onward configuration.and possible combat usage in my humble opinion. The real truth is we really dont know even though we really want to.

[Bruce Pennington]

4 hours ago, John C said:

I think a lot of the confusion over these is perpetuated by what Fuller and Gregory had written (see pic). Would it be possible to contact them (or the publisher) about a book revision?

I thought for sure I had passed our discoveries onto him about this, but after scanning my emails, I don't see a discussion on this.  I'll send one out ASAP.

[John C]

2 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

The real truth is we really dont know

JC:

Sorry for any confusion. I was trying to follow-up with Bruce's postulate. As far as the existence of a souvenir sword, there is no doubt. The documentation speaks for itself. As to whether or not one could have been carried into battle... I guess nothing is impossible. I can think of one scenario where a soldier might buy a souvenir sword at a PX in 1950 then get sent straight to Korea. Or be in Korea in 1950, go on leave to Tokyo and buy a sword then. I suppose he could then carry the souvenir sword into battle. But that is a lot of "ifs" and frankly not very likely.

John C. 

[Jcstroud]

Certainly postwar production is irrefutable ,however the possibility of some being made from march 1945 onward is entirely possible .now in retrospect pg 10 of Malcolm Cox s pdf about naval stainless toyokawa circled anchor stamped  blades states no blades of this sort were found after 1944 and only two were signed !! ?????

[Bruce Pennington]

1 minute ago, Jcstroud said:

Certainly postwar production is irrefutable ,however the possibility of some being made from march 1945 onward is entirely possible .now in retrospect pg 10 of Malcolm Cox s pdf about naval stainless toyokawa circled anchor stamped  blades states no blades of this sort were found after 1944 and only two were signed !! ?????

I have 1, that I have found so far, of this style with all Navy fittings.  Otherwise, the rest of the gunto looks like a souvenir.  This could be a wartime sword and the style that inspired the souvenir?

[mecox]

@Bruce Pennington @Jcstroud   "in retrospect pg 10 of Malcolm Cox s pdf about naval stainless toyokawa circled anchor stamped  blades states no blades of this sort were found after 1944 and only two were signed !! ?????"

your statement is out of context....there is a note below  the table which means not found in this current compilation, it obviously does not mean "ever found any where in the world at any time"!!!

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks Mal!

 

J & J -

 

I finished surveying my files.  I have 28 souvenir on file.  

25 with Anchor stamp; 3 no anchor

 

Of the 25 - 17 had smooth kabutogane; 2- unknown; 6 Textured kabutogane (none with sakaura)

Of the 3 - all 3 were textured, and 1 had sakura on the sides and top.

 

So my theory is disproved.  We're back to not knowing if the different kabutogane styles mean that Tenshozan was using surplus (textured) and making new (un-textured); or is there a possibility that Tenshozan and Japanese Sword Co, were making souvenirs; or Tenshozan made them all, but had a couple or 3 parts suppliers (Japanese Sword Co could have been one of them).

[Jcstroud]

I think the ohmura  study clarifies this  by saying " there was a first class mounting and a second grade mounting"   probably due to the officers ability to pay . And limited resources at the time. A note to Mr Malcolm Cox: I stand corrected I meant no disrespect only found it that in respect to toyokawa swordsmiths there is so little known about them.

[Jcstroud]

23 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Very speculative here - but what if the textured kabutogane, missing Toyokawa stamps, were made by the Japanese Sword Co.?

 Bruce : In response to speculation on page 46 of the leathernecks magazine you find a quote"they have a cold disdain for mass produced  machine made swords"

It seems understandable at the time.

 

[Jcstroud]

Question: the Japanese Naval Sword Company had nothing to do with the Japanese Sword Company of Hakusui Inami  correct????  It seems that perhaps at times one could be confused with the other in times past?or perhaps I am the one that is confused? I think i willrecheck my notes.

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

Japanese Naval Sword Company

I haven't heard of this one.  Possibly one of the excellent researchers have!

 

On another note,

Richard Fuller really appreciated the "Mysterious Naval Landing Forces Sword" article, and is passing it on to Leon Kapp and Jim Dawson.  He says after 100 books, he's done with books and revisions.

[Jcstroud]

On 9/27/2019 at 8:30 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

Copying something provided by Ian on another thread:

 

Ian B3HR2UH

Jo Saku

 

 

Members

120 posts

Locationdrouin australia

Posted Yesterday, 11:26 PM

 

There are a few documents around that I think explain what these swords are

 

Among the fantastic documents that Stephen Thorpe kindly posted in the articles section is the report of a conference held at the Tenshozan Works Kamakura on the 9th of September 1946. Those present included the manager Shintaro Yao who said that he had a contract with the 8th Army PX to deliver for sale by them 8000 swords . He was worried because the PX had cancelled the contract.

 

 

 

Among the downloadable documents in the National Diet library website is a letter from Capt Wall dated 22 July 1949 where he seeks permission to take home one Naval type Japanese sword presented to him by Mr Yao supervisor of the Japanese Naval sword Manufacturing Co Kamakura .

 

 

 

There is a further letter dated 4 March 1950 requesting authorization to procure authentic samurai swords and hari kari knives for resale to the Exchange . I am not sure what the exchange is but the letter goes on to approve the recommendation that CPO be allowed to procure for sale to the exchange some 6000 souvenir swords . It was noted that the recommendation was based on the fact that an original purchase order had been placed with the manufacturer and had not been cancelled in time to prevent the manufacture of some 6000 swords. In order to prevent monetary loss to the Japanese concern procurement of the remainder of the purchase order was approved .

 

 

 

I think these documents explain the origins of these swords

 

Ian Brooks

This is the quote where I found the title Japanese Naval Sword Company. Respectfully.

[jeep44]

I didn't realize you were keeping a register of these swords-here's mine:

[jeep44]

Here's  another photo of it:

[jeep44]

last photo:

[John C]

10 minutes ago, jeep44 said:

last photo

Douglas:

That's interesting. That is only the second one I have seen with Navy kabutogane and menuki. @Bruce Pennington FYI.

John C.

[John C]

3 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

This is the quote where I found the title Japanese Naval Sword Company.

This is only a guess, however I suspect the Japanese Naval Sword company refers to Tenshozan. This Capt. Wall who made the initial statement probably did not know or had forgotten the name Tenshozan. We would need the original document to confirm.

John C. 

[Jcstroud]

If you download Mr. Bruce Penningtons

Pdf on the mysterious Naval Landing Swords the document is near the bottom....

[Jcstroud]

Your guess was correct according to previous posts and docs......

[Jcstroud]

One thing that I have noticed is these souvenir swords some have small toyokawa circled stamps like the one found the takayama -to of masahiro and other blades have a larger, different circled anchor stamp!! Hmmmmm.....

[John C]

@Bruce Pennington do you know how to navigate the National Diet library referenced by @Ian B3HR2UH so we can pull the original document re: Capt. Wall mentioned above? 

 

John C.

[Jcstroud]

35 minutes ago, John C said:

@Bruce Pennington do you know how to navigate the National Diet library referenced by @Ian B3HR2UH so we can pull the original document re: Capt. Wall mentioned above? 

 

John C.

Interesting none of the documents in Bruce s pdf  mention the title "Japanese Naval Sword Manufacturing Company...

Tenshozan Works yes....I wonder where Steve Thorpe found that  "Title"  ??????

[John C]

1 minute ago, Jcstroud said:

I wonder where Steve Thorpe found that  "Title"

That's why I am hoping to pull the original document. It may have other useful information about the souvenir swords (e.g. hopefully a description).

 

John C.