Nlf Gunto Discussion

[John C]

The symbol to the right looks like the "Ho" stamp of the 1st Arsenal, Kokura army arsenal.

John C.

[Baka Gaijin]

If it helps, in 1976 I received Japan Sword Company catalogue by post, as I was searching for good Iai-To.

 

Its long gone, but I do recall the catalogue had a section for US military style swords, sword belts and leather sword bags.

 

There was a small section for desk novelties including pairs of bookends which comprised military Handle and blade, a bit like this:

 

Its the only example I could find online to illustrate.

 

 

(I ended up dealing with Meirin Sangyo who were more geared up for international orders).

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks to Doug - @jeep44 - for the Leatherneck Magazine article.  I'm posting the pages below.  It did not help us with the souvenir question.  It does say they were making "fine steel blades."  Like Doug said, the forge got started up as "Marines...brought in their souvenir blades for repair jobs."  The rest of the article discusses the story of NCOs getting custom uniform swords made for half the price of one bought back home, but these were US military NCO swords.  Now, who knows how technically savvy the author was in using the term "souvenir."  Was he lumping all war trophies under that label, like most civilians would?  Or did he actually know the difference and was referring to the souvenirs in question?  I would find it hard to believe that guys were bringing in brand new souvenir blades, unless they were playing with them, whacking things with them and causing damage, which is certainly possible.  Even so, it doesn't tell us who made the souvenir in the first place.

 

Still a good read:

 

 

[John C]

  On 3/18/2023 at 3:53 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Still a good read:

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Excellent read. Could you please post page 46 or is it just ads?

John C.

[Kiipu]

  On 3/18/2023 at 4:54 PM, John C said:

Could you please post page 46 or is it just ads?

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Not a problem, here you go.

Leatherneck  1955-08: Vol 38 Iss 8

[jeep44]

Here's page 46:

[vajo]

Great reading and with the right sense of humor.

 

The $4 polish triggers me 

 

"Asking Mr. Inami if he could make a sword is like asking the president of General Motors if they could build a car." 

[John C]

  On 3/18/2023 at 6:10 PM, Kiipu said:

here you go.

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Fantastic! Thank you very much!

John C.

[Jcstroud]

Would you consider this a Nlf ,or a type 3?

[BANGBANGSAN]

  On 3/19/2023 at 7:46 PM, Jcstroud said:

Would you consider this a Nlf ,or a type 3?

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Souvenir sword

[Jcstroud]

1more 1st too ffuzzy

[Jcstroud]

How can one put a date on such this one looks like it was in a war.? Wow BangBangSan thsnks for your response that was fast!

[John C]

As has been noted in Bruce Pennington's article, we know there were originally 8,000 swords ordered by the PX, of which 2,600 were originally delivered. Production was halted for a time due to red tape until the remaining swords were allowed to be sold again starting in 1949. It even specified the retail price of 10 dollars and wholesale of 6.50. 

So why might the sword look old? It is still 70 to 80 years old and probably has been handled and played with quite a bit. It is also possible some unscrupulous dealers artificially "age" their swords and call it a kai-gunto to increase profit.

 

John C.

[John C]

Hey @Bruce Pennington: Do we have any examples of the 1,200 tanto that were produced?

 

John C.

[Jcstroud]

Iknow personally the owner of small store where I found this sword in the 

Mountains of Puerto Rico and the man that gave it him passed on many years ago and hang there around 30 years along side anice collection of antiques artificially aged no way. The story was he was said to be a korean war veteran

Have been searching for more clues for 7 years now.....

[John C]

Hey @Bruce Pennington: One more question. Do we have any examples of the sticker mentioned in the article? Should be a Japan Sword Company logo or something like that. 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 3/19/2023 at 11:13 PM, John C said:

Hey @Bruce Pennington: Do we have any examples of the 1,200 tanto that were produced?

 

John C.

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Well, the document said "daggers", so we don't know if they were tanto or dirks.  Until this week, I personally wasn't even aware of the fact.  I'd brushed right past the point when researching the souvenir sword.  So, short answer is - no.

 

  On 3/20/2023 at 12:40 AM, Jcstroud said:

Iknow personally the owner of small store where I found this sword in the 

Mountains of Puerto Rico and the man that gave it him passed on many years ago and hang there around 30 years along side anice collection of antiques artificially aged no way. The story was he was said to be a korean war veteran

Have been searching for more clues for 7 years now.....

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Well, I hope we gave you the answers you were searching for.  Like we said earlier, I think there was a good chance these were being sold at that Korean PX you found.

[Jcstroud]

I have also read that there were also mobile post exchanges. Small busses converted into stores. Makes sense they had 8747 swords the could not sell until authorised by U.S. ARMY Headquarters in 1949.

[Jcstroud]

I have also read that there were also mobile post exchanges. Small busses converted into stores. Makes sense they had 8747 swords the could not sell until authorised by U.S. ARMY Headquarters in 1949.

[Jcstroud]

[Jcstroud]

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 3/19/2023 at 8:04 PM, Jcstroud said:

How can one put a date on such this one looks like it was in a war.? Wow BangBangSan thsnks for your response that was fast!

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Just saw this post, John.  I've seen 2 or 3 like this with no gold gilding.  Everything else is souvenir standard - army metal fittings on navy black saya, black fabric same' under icky greenish ito.  I don't know how they wound up without gilding, but it's clearly a souvenir.

[Jcstroud]

Why the naval fuchi and tsuba I wonder ? Is that the standard for .U.S. Army purchased souvenirs? Could it be possilble that it was used in combat?

[Jcstroud]

I guess we will never know.

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 3/21/2023 at 11:18 PM, Jcstroud said:

Why the naval fuchi and tsuba I wonder ? Is that the standard for .U.S. Army purchased souvenirs? Could it be possilble that it was used in combat?

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Well,

You'll see in my article on these a comparison with the Naval, Army NCO, and souvenir, that the souvenir tsuba is actually different than the other two.  It is larger in diameter, and thinner.

 

               Navy                        Souvenir                           Army

[Jcstroud]

A possible answer to the reason for the lack of guilding can be found in the ohmura-study that describes what he called  the "extraordinary special case" of the gunto. Suspension mount to one,abolished plating of metal fittings,brass,the pattern,the knotloop and the springclip. In march 1945 in reference to the navy type tachi.due to goods  drain .so the mystery continues !

 

[Jcstroud]

  On 3/24/2023 at 2:39 AM, Jcstroud said:

A possible answer to the reason for the lack of guilding can be found in the ohmura-study that describes what he called  the "extraordinary special case" of the gunto. Suspension mount to one,abolished plating of metal fittings,brass,the pattern,the knotloop and the springclip. In march 1945 in reference to the navy type tachi.due to goods  drain .so the mystery continues !

 

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[Jcstroud]

Also he was refering to " Kamakura anti rust naval tachi.

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 3/24/2023 at 2:39 AM, Jcstroud said:

due to goods  drain .

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Yes, and this might support the idea that some of the souvenirs were made from surplus parts, while the rest were new manufacture.  I would have to compare the non-gilded pieces to the gilded ones.  The only 1 I have in-hand is gilded and all the metal parts are noticeably lighter/flimsier than parts made for the war.

[Jcstroud]

BRUCE,THOUGHT TO SEND THIS PHOTO FOR YOUR COMPARISON AN ANALYSIS.