Nlf Gunto Discussion

[vajo]

Thats what i think Bruce. We should not seen them as a souvenier sword like a souviener in our western understanding. I'm really sure the people who made it, made it with proud in a time all was destroyed and the time of Japanese swords was gone. We should not forget that it was not sure that the Japanese could be allowed to forge swords further. And it took years, before the US war government allowed it to ignite the fire in the tosho again.

[Kiipu]

Another one for the record books.

SJ-191. WW2 Japanese Navy Katana late war.

[Bruce Pennington]

And I should at least link that one in the Arsenal Stamps thread, with the rocking star stamp, here too:

 

[Kiipu]

On 9/26/2019 at 10:26 PM, Ian B3HR2UH said:

Among the downloadable documents in the National Diet library website is a letter from Capt Wall dated 22 July 1949 where he seeks permission to take home one Naval type Japanese sword presented to him by Mr Yao supervisor of the Japanese Naval sword Manufacturing Co Kamakura.

 

 I ran across this letter yesterday and I will quote the exact text below.  Note that part of the name of the company includes "Japanese Naval" and this would seem to indicate the type of sword the company was manufacturing.

 

Quote

22 July 1949

SUBJECT:  Collectors Items

TO:              Commanding General

                    FEC, APO 500

                    ATTN:  G-4 Plans & Policy

1.  It is requested that I be permitted to take home one (1) Naval type Japanese sword presented to me by Mr. Yao, Supervisor of the Japanese Naval Sword Manufacturing Co., Kamakura, Honshu, Japan.

2.  This sword is not a War trophy but is a souvenir manufactured for sale in the Post Exchange by Mr. Yao, Kamakura, Honshu, Japan.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

The work being done by Thomas @Kiipu is priceless.  He has discovered more documents showing the investigation, deliberations, and resolution to the complaint raised by Tenzoshan officials, first found in the post-war documents posted by Stephen Thorpe.  There were a total of 8,747 made.  I've amended the "Mysterious Naval Landing Sword" article and attached them.

 

 

The Mysterious Naval Landing Forces Sword.pdf

[Bruce Pennington]

Wanted to post this one, found on THIS GUNS.RU THREAD.

It has an undated blade with mei: Takayama To Masahiro made this; with small Toyokawa anchor.

 

From the shadowing of the kasaki, it appears to have the fat tip of the Takayama styled blade.  So the question is - did Masahiro continue to work for the Tenzoshan factory making blades for the souvenir operation, or was this a surplus blade?  It is the first Takayama-to I've found in one of these.

 

The growing variety of smiths and blades I'm finding in them seems to support the idea that at least some of the over 8,000 souvenirs they sold had surplus blades.

[Bruce Pennington]

I believe someone ran a thread asking if there were legitimate one-piece fuchi/seppa, but I cannot find it, so I'm posting this.  It's relevant here, too, as it may be an example of the style copied by Tensoshan in making the souvenir set.  It's a one-piece fuchi/seppa on a kaigunto posted for sale on Yahoo, HERE.  It's on a Suetsugu Shigemitsu blade.  Clearly naval, not the army style used for the souvenir, but maybe made by the same shop for the souvenir, post-war?

[Lareon]

here is a one piece fuchi seppa on this "ornate gunto"

[Brian]

The style they still make to this day?
http://www.japansword.co.jp/military.html

[Bruce Pennington]

I want to post these two from a discussion on the Translation Forum, to consolidate the items to this topic.  One is a souvenir for sale on fleabay (mislabeled as a Navy kaigunto - seller notified) and the other posted by @MacTheWhopper HERE.  They are interesting because both blades were made by Toyosuke, a Toyokawa Navy blade in Type 98 fittings, and the other in souvenir fittings.

 

Toyosuke in Type 98 fittings:

 

Toyosuke in Souvenir:

 

So, either this smith was actively making swords both before and after the war, or as a minimum, there were surplus blades of his to use by Tenshozan after the war.  Still doesn't prove either case, but I found it fascinating to see blades of the same smith in both wartime and post-war fittings.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Here's an odd-ball for even the souvenir sword.  Found on this Guns.ru thread.

 

Over there, they immediately labeled it as a Chinese fake.  I immediately labeled it as a post-war souvenir.  But I am bothered by a few things.

1. The nakago is poor.  No yasurime.  Painted numbers, except for the first one, look like jibberish.  Ana at end looks recently drilled.

2.  There is actual same' and ito isn't the normal icky pale green found on souvenirs.

3.  The army metal fittings aren't gilded.

4.  Too many seppa for a souvenir, and the fuchi isn't the 1-piece fuchi/seppa.

5.  The hamon looks fake.

 

Could the Chinese fakers actually be faking the post-war souvenir???  Or, is it just a Chinese blade put into souvenir fittings?  Or is it just an odd-ball?  I have seen slight variations in them, albeit rare.

[PNSSHOGUN]

This looks more like a mix of fake and real parts. The blade is certainly not Japanese.

[ROKUJURO]

6) The new TSUKA-ITO is not bound correctly the Japanese way.

[vajo]

The bind looks in the same direction for me Jean. Typical chinese style. The seppa is not patinated. The fittings look very cheap. I think its fake.

[ROKUJURO]

That is what I meant, Chris.

[vajo]

Ah sorry Jean. In my ignorrance and less english i overread it. 

[Kiipu]

A souvenir sword made by Takeyasu.

Somewhat rare Japanese Naval Kai Gunto signed Takayasu

[John C]

Bruce:

I think this may be one of the souvenir swords referenced by your article "The Mysterious Naval Landing Forces Sword."

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255826611966

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

Nice find, John!  Classic example in every aspect.  Just added it to the files.

[Kiipu]

@mdiddy has a souvenir sword for sale on eBay.  It looks to have three horizontal lines toward the bottom of the tang.

*EXCELLENT* WWII Japanese Samurai Sword KAI GUNTO Shin Gunto World War 2 KATANA

[Bruce Pennington]

14 hours ago, Kiipu said:

@mdiddy has a souvenir sword for sale on eBay

Intereting one, Thomas.  Well-made nakago and nice hamon.  Could be left-over surplus from the war?  Faint Toyokawa Arsenal stamp.

 

Surprised our fellow member @mdiddy is calling this a WWII kaigunto in "late war Kai gunto mounts."  He does add "This is a variant that was made late in the war and which were commonly handed out or sold to U.S. service members after the war."  So closer to the truth.  I admit that he is free to have his opinions.  But the evidence is heavily weighted against the claim that they were made during the war.  I mean like, 99% heavily weighted.

[Jcstroud]

Wanted to repost photos of a toyosuke sword that I posted in2016 titled"mystery marine mount in Puerto rico so as to perhaps dispel the put together  from parts theory on some of the toyosuke saku blades in the photos you will see all parts numbered 45 in3 different formats ,ŕoman numeral,modified roman numeral, and in black paint kanji. However I cannot be sure when it was made.

[Jcstroud]

Will ad more photos as the app will allow kudos to Bruce Pennington onhis arsenal stamps pdf a truly excellent reference source for newbys like me. 

[Jcstroud]

After having seen 6 different toyosuke saku swords all but one were  the same except 1 shingunto.

[Jcstroud]

1 more

[Jcstroud]

Found out that this sword was brought back by an korean war vet.fyi.Bruce.

[vajo]

Its upside down. My guess is Toyosuke saku 

seems to be a showa-to

 

[vajo]

Found a thread you refer. Sorry didn't read that you know the smith.

Is that your sword?

 

The koshirae is a souvenier sword. It was assembled after the war and sold in PX Stores to US Troops as souvenier.

[Jcstroud]

No it has a diferent number in kanji on the nakago but same in other respects.

[Jcstroud]

I actually very impressed with the sharpness after 70 years without a polish.can still shave with it but i dont recommend it!