Nlf Gunto Discussion

[Bruce Pennington]

And another counter document from a discussion at Gunboards:

 

It tells how permission to bring back war trophies was terminated in 1946. So, with this in mind, it is clear why the PX certificate was worded the way it was - regardless of the true origin of the gunto. On this fact alone, the 1950 document doesn't really tell us the facts we are looking for.

 

I still think it is telling that the PX was selling them, and in 1950. To me, 5 years after the war was over, this indicates that brand new swords were being made and the PX was involved in the sales

[vajo]

Bruce thanks a lot for your work. So we can now call these swords souvenir-swords.

[Guest]

Excerpt from Japan Sword Company website:

 

[弊社と軍装品］
1906年頃から創業した弊社は、刀剣外装の需要増と共に、研究とその技術を積み重ね、軍装の仕事もさせていただいて参りました。
特に戦前は近くに海軍倶楽部｢水交社｣（戦前、海軍によって公認された唯一の将校クラブ。懇親・研究を目的に1876年設立。）があり
軍関係の方も多く来店されたと聞いております。(写真1参照)
大戦後その技術は、弊社内工場で熟練した職人(写真2参照)によって、米国海軍・海兵隊はじめ、日本や諸外国の儀礼刀製作に
活かされてきました(写真3,4参照)。そして現在でも、弊社の高い技術は継承され、時代に合った方法で作製は続けられています。
この度弊社では、当時の技術と部品を活用し、復刻版として皆様にお届けしたいと思います。    

 

［Our history for military equipment］

 

Japan Sword Co. has been established in the Inami Family since at least 1906. 
Since then the accumulated technical expertise of this reputable family firm has been devoted to serving the requirements of its
customers in all matters concerning the Japanese Sword. 
With growing demand for Sword mountings and fittings we have now extended our researches into the field of military equipment. 
The Suiko-sha foundation, which is nearby, was established in 1876 by the Japanese Navy as a social club for the comradeship of 
Naval Officers, many of whom visit Inami &Co. [Refer to Illustration No.1] The technical skills of craftsmen at a factory 
in our company [Refer to Illustration No.2] have been utilised to produce ceremonial Swords not only for the Japanese military
but for the US Navy and Marines, and for other countries. [Refer to Illustration No.3, 4] These skills have been handed down, 
so that we now propose to offer them to all our customers as a series of reproductions, 
in the ancient and valid Japanese tradition of utsushimono. 

 

http://www.japansword.co.jp/

 

Scroll down to ■ Militaly item

 

Re the Suiko sha Foundation mentioned above: 

 

Excerpt from the Grand lodge of Tokyo website:

 

http://www.grandlodgeofjapan.org/grandlodge.html

 

With the dissolution of the feudal system, the fortunes of most aristocratic families waned. The Hisamatsu property was purchased by the Imperial Navy Officers’ Club, which raised a modern ferro-concrete structure on the site but preserved most of the exquisite traditional gardens. 

The Naval Officers’ Club (Suikosha) survived the wartime bombing of Tokyo and was, for a time, used as a recreational facility by Occupation forces. Eventually it was placed on the market by the Japanese government and purchased with funds raised by the Scottish Rite Bodies and Tokyo Masonic Lodge No. 2, who joined in creating a non-profit foundation for the purpose: the Tokyo Masonic Association (TMA).
 

 

Under present conditions, the site of the old Suiko - sha Foundation is an 11 minute walk, so well within comfortable strolling distance of Occupation Force G.I.'s on R & R.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/Japan+Sword+Co.,+Ltd.,+3+Chome-8-1+Toranomon,+Minato,+Tokyo+105-0001,+Japan/Tokyo+Masonic+Centre,+4+Chome-1-%EF%BC%93+Shibak%C5%8Den,+Minato-ku,+T%C5%8Dky%C5%8D-to+105-0011,+Japan/@35.6632208,139.7409614,16z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x60188b93d133a157:0xcc9ffccf12db4d39!2m2!1d139.7476576!2d35.6666614!1m5!1m1!1s0x60188b97c1a833b3:0x4ce90f2b8488482!2m2!1d139.7436943!2d35.659601?hl=en

[Guest]

Here's the Pacific Stars and Stripes for November 19 1950, precisely what G.I.'s would have been reading in the foyer of the Suiko - sha Foundation Building.

 

https://newspaperarchive.com/pacific-stars-and-stripes-nov-19-1950-p-1/

 

So if you want to access the 1940's issues you will have to login to the site and pay a fee of a little under $20 per month.

[Guest]

More on the Suiko - sha organisation.

 

Like its Army counterpart Kaiko - sha, the Suiko - sha disbanded for a short time after the end of the second World War, however by 1951, interested veterans were reforming in groups all over Japan.

 

The Army veterans took the name Kaikokai and the Navy veterans took the name Suikokai.

 

By 1957, the Army veterans reverted to their old Kaiko - sha name but the Navy veterans remained with Suikokai, which exists today with members of the Japan Maritime Defence Force and associates.

 

This may explain the items  such as replica Kaigunto and Naval Dirks and the 1960's Black and White image showing dozens of Naval Dirks being assembled on the Military page of Japan Sword Company website.

 

[jeep44]

Here's an article from the August 1955 "Leatherneck" (magazine of the Marines). It tells of how Marines are getting NCO swords made at the Japan Sword Company, with lots of photos of the processes used in making them. The second photo is the Japan Sword Company shop of Mr Hakusui Inami, at the corner of 12th and B street in Tokyo. They were forging blades at this time.

[rebcannonshooter]

Hi Bruce,

  I have a kaigunto that I've always wondered about.  It is a very nice sword with sharkskin saya, and a signed seki stamped sword. The problem is that the saya has army fittings.  I always thought that some GI swapped the Navy fittings for Army ones. But.... if so they did a very good job, as the fittings are tight and well done. Not the usual GI cobble job.  I don't know if this is a Navy sword set up for land use or what??????

 

   Tom M.

[Bruce Pennington]

Thomas,

 

This is one of those that no one will be able to say how it got this way. It's clearly not one of these "NLF" post-war souvenirs. The ito (handle wrap) has been re-wrapped, and not by a pro. So, it's likely an ametuer's effort to return what was once a kaigunto in bad shape, to a seemingly original condition. My Dad's Mantetsu came to me missing those same parts. In fact, it was missing the tsuba and seppa too! I took my time, and learned a lot before I replaced the missing parts with wartime-correct fittings.

 

That's a very nice sharkskin upgrade to the saya! Is the blade dated?

[PNSSHOGUN]

Authentic Kai Gunto Saya but somewhere along the road all but the original Koiguchi have been lost and swapped for Shin Gunto parts. If you bought a replacement Kai Gunto Saya with all the fittings you could restore it to original pattern. The wrap looks wartime to me, not sure what you're seeing there Bruce?

[Bruce Pennington]

The wrap looks wartime to me, not sure what you're seeing there Bruce?

You’re right John. Just looked bad on my little iPhone before.

[Dave R]

One of the things I don't like about Kai-Gunto is the wrap. I know why they went for Hira-Maki, it's the old Tachi style and very posh, but it always looks a bit insecure, and not as good a grip as Hineri-Maki. It's the tsukamaki I tried on my first restoration when a teenager, and it shifts like mad under the hand......

 Probably one reason why the Navy insisted on a full same cover to the tsuka, the integrity of the ito is then not such an issue.

[Bruce Pennington]

Copying something provided by Ian on another thread:

 

Ian B3HR2UH

Jo Saku

 

 

Members

120 posts

Locationdrouin australia

Posted Yesterday, 11:26 PM

 

There are a few documents around that I think explain what these swords are

 

Among the fantastic documents that Stephen Thorpe kindly posted in the articles section is the report of a conference held at the Tenshozan Works Kamakura on the 9th of September 1946. Those present included the manager Shintaro Yao who said that he had a contract with the 8th Army PX to deliver for sale by them 8000 swords . He was worried because the PX had cancelled the contract.

 

 

 

Among the downloadable documents in the National Diet library website is a letter from Capt Wall dated 22 July 1949 where he seeks permission to take home one Naval type Japanese sword presented to him by Mr Yao supervisor of the Japanese Naval sword Manufacturing Co Kamakura .

 

 

 

There is a further letter dated 4 March 1950 requesting authorization to procure authentic samurai swords and hari kari knives for resale to the Exchange . I am not sure what the exchange is but the letter goes on to approve the recommendation that CPO be allowed to procure for sale to the exchange some 6000 souvenir swords . It was noted that the recommendation was based on the fact that an original purchase order had been placed with the manufacturer and had not been cancelled in time to prevent the manufacture of some 6000 swords. In order to prevent monetary loss to the Japanese concern procurement of the remainder of the purchase order was approved .

 

 

 

I think these documents explain the origins of these swords

 

Ian Brooks

[Bruce Pennington]

Here is the document. It shows the Tenshozan factory was the only factory allowed to remain open and was making these swords.

 

[vajo]

The blades where made newly after the war and did not came from wartime production?

[Bruce Pennington]

The blades where made newly after the war and did not came from wartime production?

That's the way it looks.

[vajo]

Bruce, is known how many of these swords were produced and sold after the war?

[Bruce Pennington]

Chris,

The document states that the 8th Army PX had contracted "for some 8,000 swords."

[Bruce Pennington]

Saw this at auction and had to get it! Now I finally have one for my collection!

 

Nice blade, anti-rust steel with artificially applied hamon. You can see that it's just on the surface, and however it's applied, spots in it are missed showing the shiny blade through the thin fake hamon texture. The nakago jiri is just rudely snapped off without any effort to finish it.

 

All parts are WAY too shiny and new, including the canvas same' and shiny ito.

 

I'm happy to own one. They were a real piece of post-war Japanese industrial history.

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Hi Bruce, after all of the great work you have done pulling together the information on these I am glad you got yourself an example . Well done.

Ian Brooks

[IJASWORDS]

Congratulations Bruce, as long as we all now realize that they are post war put together souvenirs. But, they are an interesting artifact of that period to own. I think some immediate post war "Jeep Springs " made in the Islands are interesting to militaria collectors. 

[16k]

I have just read this thread for the first time. Very interesting and as usual, great investigative skills, guys.

 

However, I’m wondering about something. Yes, this are souvenirs but how come they were allowed?

 

I mean, war time blades are still illegal and were being destroyed because they were weapons and not traditional and yet these non traditional blades were manufactured in spite of the ban? Am I missing something here?

[Dave R]

I have just read this thread for the first time. Very interesting and as usual, great investigative skills, guys.

 

However, I’m wondering about something. Yes, this are souvenirs but how come they were allowed?

 

I mean, war time blades are still illegal and were being destroyed because they were weapons and not traditional and yet these non traditional blades were manufactured in spite of the ban? Am I missing something here?

 

 They were allowed because they were sold to US occupation troops, not to the Japanese, and I would assume that they were all sent back to the USA.

 

 General MacArthur allowed production to continue even under the occupation because he did not want to throw the civilian employees making the swords out of work in an already damaged economy.

[Bruce Pennington]

Agree with Dave. And I don't think any of these parts, especially the blades, were wartime made. After having one in hand, they are all completely new, nothing old about them. The Toyokawa arsenal was allowed to stay open to make stuff. If the parts already existed, just any old sword shop could have assembled everything. I believe Toyokawa was manufacturing this stuff, brand new, after the war. The mix/match of army/navy means the item wasn't "military spec" therefore not military at all. Just a souvenir.

[Blazeaglory]

Actually pretty cool but the day Nihonto was relegated to the "tourist piece"

[Dave R]

Actually pretty cool but the day Nihonto was relegated to the "tourist piece"

 

 Nihonto became tourist souvenirs in 1877 with the final end to the Samurai system and the ban on wearing swords for all but Imperial forces and servants.

 

 The Toyokawa swords were not Nihonto, they had rust resistant ( not quite stainless steel) blades even.

[Bruce Pennington]

Don't know if this is useful or not, but I've attached an article I've written summarizing the discoveries we've made on this souvenir sword. Feel free to download and share when you come across a newbie with one, or someone asking about buying one.

 

Thanks to all for your contributions!

The Mysterious Naval Landing Forces Sword-converted.pdf

[vajo]

Great Bruce. Thank you. It is very useful.

[IJASWORDS]

Love your work Bruce. 

[vajo]

Bruce your work is very important. I read it now 4 times and i came to the conclusion that these swords are post war swords - yes, but they are war-surrender swords. They would not exists if the war didn't happened or Japan didn't surrender. They only exists because Japan surrendered. These swords are the last second world war swords. Now they have a history. That is incedible good documented and they could now find a place in collection without any words of doubt.

 

I was printing out your sheet to have it in my documents. It is a important document and any serious collector should read it and have it in mind when such a sword come in discussion.

[Bruce Pennington]

Thank you Chris, you put that into words that choke me up a bit. Not about my article, but about the fact that these swords don't just represent the end of WWII, but the end of Japanese war swords. The art and craft continue today, but none of them are made for military forces, for war.