Nlf Gunto Discussion

[Jcstroud]

On 10/7/2023 at 4:58 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Another FU, on a mumei blade #89

Hey Bruce,question : in the katakana charts is there a numerical value that can be associated with each character? A correction the hiragana chart I posted was go-juon order not iroha order.

[Bruce Pennington]

@Kiipu would be the guy to answer that one, John.  I don't know.  You'll see us, when discussing Mantetsu blades, say something like "this one is of the 27th series" etc, That is simply from counting down the IROHA list of kana to the kanji being discussed.  Your idea of using that as a number to describe a blade isn't a bad idea, if they were actually using the IROHA system in the markings. Since we are suspecting that Tenshozan was restarting the numbers after 99 or 100, a kana + number would indicate the next 100, 200, 300, etc.  I doubt they would have spoken of the numbers that way, but it's a useful communication tool for us as we track and discuss them.

[Kiipu]

The iroha order is more akin to our ABCs.  In the case of swords, this is how they should be interpreted.

 

Mantetsu (SMR) used a serialization system similar to what the Japanese army used.  Thus, collectors refer to them by series as a form of shorthand.  This shorthand is widely known amongst Japanese mlitaria collectors and readily understood by them.  Below is a brief explanation taken from an unpublished article I wrote twenty years ago.

 

Quote

Starting in the 1930s, the Japanese Army started using a series system to serialize their small arms.  With this system, a serial number never exceeded five digits.  The initial series did not use a series mark and was numbered from 1 to 99999. After this initial series, each succeeding series was serialized from 0 to 99999 and was prefixed by one of forty-eight encircled katakana characters.  Katakana is a phonetic syllabic script normally used to write loanwords from various Western languages.  The forty-eight encircled katakana characters followed the iroha poem order.  The iroha poem has a Buddhist theme about the transience of life and is a way of writing katakana that uses all of the characters and repeats none.  Thus, the poem was used to assign an order, such as in dictionaries and indexes, just like the ABCs are used in the West.  Note that these series marks are the numerical equivalent of the digits that exceed five.  Thus, collectors refer to these series marks by their numerical order and not by their phonetic sounds.  For example, the series mark ㋑, which is the encircled katakana character “i”, would be referred to as the 1st series and not as the “i” series.

X

[Kiipu]

17 minutes ago, Kiipu said:

The iroha order is more akin to our ABCs.  In the case of swords, this is how they should be interpreted.

 

Forgot the link that should follow.

Iroha

[Jcstroud]

2 hours ago, Kiipu said:

 

Forgot the link that should follow.

Iroha

Hey,Kiipu is it possible that some used the go-juon order instead being a equivalent system?

[Kiipu]

Yes, anything is possible when it comes to Japanese swords.  English letters, Arabic numbers, geometric shapes, punches, file marks, you name it, it was used as a prefix or suffix.

[SHOCKY121]

Anyone able to give me some info on this one, and what it might be worth? 

[John C]

Evan:

Not much left to say beyond Bruce's Mysterious Naval Landing Sword article and this thread. About 8,747 were ordered by the 8th Army PX and sold mainly at the Tokyo px from 1946 to 1952. Notice the use of both army style parts and navy blade. The orange cord attached to the sword (which is almost always missing) actually went on the bag and not the sword.

Is there anything specific you would like to know?

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

Evan,

Thanks for bringing your souvenir to our discussion!  It's the first #97 we have on record, now.

 

Can you please give us a shot of the full nakago, both sides, showing the anchor stamp (if present, though, should be one).  

 

Also, could I get a close-up of the kabutogane (handle end-cap)?

 

These NORMALLY go for $450 USD, although there are dealers selling them for over $1,000 claiming they are "late-war kaigunto."

[Bruce Pennington]

So we have a SU 97 or ス97, which is the last of the IROHA order.  

 

Is anyone tracking these katakana?  I have this one and a FU 89, フ89, which is in the last half of the order.

 

My memory is fading, didn't someone work out the math of how many IROHA katakana it would take to run through 8747 souvenirs, assuming they start a new kana every 100 swords?

 

Ok, well, that would be 874.7 kana needed.  Hmmm.

[John C]

3 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

that would be 874.7 kana needed

I think you mean 87.47, but the point is the same...unless they start the kana over as well???

 

John C. 

[Bruce Pennington]

Oh, right.  

 

I just wish we had been onto this much earlier, so we could have asked each owner to show the tsuka ends for the markings.

 

After reviewing our previous discussions, I remember that there is a variety of markings that may indicate various 100-series.

We have plain numbers

We have Anglo - 4/16; 4/45

We have katakana - ヤ, フ, and ス

We have katakana and Anglo - ヤ/3/50

We have katakana and Japanese - ヤ/五/66

We have kana - 伊65 

[Jcstroud]

11 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

After reviewing our previous discussions, I remember that there is a variety of markings that may indicate various 100-series.

We have plain numbers

We have Anglo - 4/16; 4/45

We have katakana - ヤ, フ, and ス

We have katakana and Anglo - ヤ/3/50

We have katakana and Japanese - ヤ/五/66

We have kana - 伊65 

And also go-juon/45

[Bruce Pennington]

On 10/7/2023 at 12:58 PM, Kiipu said:

This could be the only indicator of the sequence in which the souvenir swords were made.  In this particular case, it is the katakana character FU フ.  It is just an idea but worthy of comment nonetheless.

フ六五 = FU-65.

Thomas,

What would you say the character is on the right side of this?  A "6"?

 

And this whole sword complicates the sequence issue (it has the 伊65 on the nakago), unless our sequences are more accurately counted on the tsuka than on the nakago.

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

And also go-juon/45

John,

Not understanding your meaning.  Isn't "gojuon" the whole katakana grid?

[Kiipu]

14 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

A "6"?

 

It does kinda look like a handwritten six (6) or a really bad zero (0).

[Bruce Pennington]

My next dilemma is - a "6" or an upside down "9"!!!  The 3 on my tsuka is upside down compared to the kana/number on the other side.

[Jcstroud]

On 12/8/2023 at 11:36 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Not understanding your meaning.  Isn't "gojuon" the whole katakana grid?

On my Toyosuke #45

The tsuka insriptions use the 4th and fifth characters of the go-juon hiragana chart with no prefix characters it would be an assuption of mine that the characters represent the numbers 45. I hope that this clarifies my previous post.

[Mikaveli]

The gojuon (五十音) is the Japanese syllabary (the sounds). It's sometimes used as a synonym for the standard order, but that's 五十音順

 

I've never encountered the kana grid position being used to represent a number - so I'd be surprised by that.

 

As in the gunto example above, when numbers are written, typically just the Kanji or numbers are used 九七 or 97 etc.

 

In official / legal documents you might even encounter some specific Kanji used in that context (玖漆 etc.) but hopefully, that's out of scope 😅

[Bruce Pennington]

On 12/9/2023 at 10:36 AM, Kiipu said:

 

It does kinda look like a handwritten six (6) or a really bad zero (0).

It could be a "RA" hastily written

 

But after noticing the horizontal line at the very top of the figure, and remembering other Anglo numbers with a horizontal line at the top, I'm thinking more strongly that it is, in fact, a 6.

[Kiipu]

13 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

But after noticing the horizontal line at the very top of the figure,

 

You mean the black staining around the upper right edges?  Lets call it a six and call it a day!

[Bruce Pennington]

17 minutes ago, Kiipu said:

 

You mean the black staining around the upper right edges?  Lets call it a six and call it a day!

Wow, never noticed the rest of that "staining."  Now the stain looks like a washed out, or attempted removal, "3"

 

But, Ok, I'll stop now......

[Conway S]

Bruce, 

 

I agree this sword adds confusion to the discussion. Here are some of my thoughts.

 

1.  If I understand things correctly 伊 would be the first in a sequence denoted by the iroha system. If you look at the picture with the 伊 you will see what looks like 五六 not 六五 (read top to bottom) in faded black paint. Maybe this was an initial run before they decided not to put sequence prefixes on the tang. I haven't seen other examples yet on souvenir swords.  

 

2. This sword also has a faint 四九 or 四七 under the painted 六五 on the signed side of the tang. So at least one, possibly two different subassembly numbers on the tang before they settled on 65. 

 

Conway 

[Conway S]

Found this number 七七 souvenir on eBay. Of note, the tang seems to be painted over covering up what looks like a mei. The first character could be 光. Given the un-cut jiri it could be a Mitsunaga 光永. There have been a few examples posted on this thread. The habaki is also marked with    / II / II which is probably shorthand for VII. 

 

ORIGINAL WWII WW2 Japanese Navy Officer Gunto Sword - Signed - Nice

 

Conway

 

 

[John C]

Just my opinion, however I think this is a legit kai gunto, albeit late war fittings. Possibly retrofitted with souvenir fuchi??

 

John C.

[Kiipu]

Definitely an early souvenir sword.  On picture 13, is that an encircled anchor stamp inside of the habaki?  Would this have been stamped prior to folding the metal to form the habaki?

[Bruce Pennington]

Yes, I agree John.  Appears that the large anchor was stamped by the souvenir team, you can see where it busted some corrosion off the nakago when they did it.

 

We have a few of these where the only the saya is souvenir and the rest looks wartime:

Mumei

ND

Large

Navy tsuka, souvenir saya

Texture

Yes, shaped

4

Pammy; Warrelics

Mumei

ND

Uknwn

Navy tsuka, Souvenir saya

Texture, No leaves

No

31

Conway, TTMilitaria

Mumei

ND

Large

Navy tsuka, souvenir saya

Texture

No

54 414 stamped

Sofe Auction; Gilbergauthi-5, ebay

Mumei

ND

Large

Navy Tsuka, souvenir saya

Smooth copper

No

64 faded7 other side

Jeep44; NMB

Mitsunaga

ND

Small & Large

Navy tsuka Souvenir Saya

N/A

Yes, shaped

77

Bear-69, ebay

 

 

We now have a few of the double anchor blades, too:

Mumei

ND

Large & small

Standard

Unknwn

No

9

Deoma/ebay; NMB

Mumei

ND

Large & small

Standard

Unknwn

No

30

ральф_2009; Guns.ru

Takeyasu

ND

Large & small

Standard

Texture

No

40

Slavanes; Guns.ru

Mitsunaga

ND

Small & Large

Navy tsuka Souvenir Saya

N/A

Yes, shaped

77

Bear-69, ebay

[Kiipu]

3 hours ago, Conway S said:

Given the un-cut jiri it could be a Mitsunaga 光永.

 

Can confirm that it is a Mitsunaga as I can see both characters.  FYI, this is the first Mitsunaga that has a painted subassembly number on it.

[Bruce Pennington]

Well, there is a Mitsunaga with a "25" painted, but it's on the undated other side of the nakago.

 

Do you think I shouldn't list it as such?

 

[Kiipu]

Normally numbers on that side do not match the other parts.  However, never say never.