Nlf Gunto Discussion

[John C]

Multiple numbers would seem to support the "subassembly" hypothesis. But what do the numbers actually pertain to? Do they refer to bin numbers on an assembly line or some other measurement? 

If they are used to match blade to fittings so they do not get mixed up (as Omhura-san suggests), wouldn't multiple numbers be a problem?

Just curious if there is more to it...

John C.

[Jcstroud]

1 hour ago, John C said:

Do they refer to bin numbers on an assembly line or some other measurement?

Consider the process  a linear string of events first the blade made to match the required weights and dimensions,second to fabricate the tsuka to fit the tapered v shaped nakago combined with the required koshirai. Third tsuka and blade drilled for the mekugi to produce a  tight double wedge fit. And finally the wrap of the tsuka. There is no way to take these precision fit pieces to use on another blade. Because 

Each one is different. Numbering was necessary for that reason. Imo

John S.    

And then the saya fitting......consideringthe different sori dimensions......not easy but had to be custom fit.

[Bruce Pennington]

And I would think that once the assembly line gets through 99, the finished swords of 1 - etc would long be processed and gone.  So starting over at "1" with fittings wouldn't cause a conflict or confusion on the assembly line/process.

[John C]

You guys are probably right. But I keep thinking of this photo we have all seen - 3 digit numbers and working on at least 30 at one time. Of course, a more complex numbering system would be necessary for a factory making many more swords.

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

Opinions please!  "75" or "95"?  Posted, and mislabeled, by Smallsword on this ebay sale.

 

 

[Conway S]

Looks like 95 九五 to me, Bruce. 

 

Conway

[Jcstroud]

10 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Opinions please!  "75" or "95"?  Posted, and mislabeled, by Smallsword on this ebay sale.

From what I can see the seppa was quicklly made,the photos blurry,the anchor looks to be a 6mm 90 degree barb ,the stamp location unusual but perfectly applied,mumei,overall condition appears good for what I can see of it,being sold by a coin collector.

Not enough there to make me want to buy it. Edit:that stamp measures  8mm !!!!!+-  something fishy here.....

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks guys.  I'll put it in the chart as "95" then.  First numbered blade in the 90s.  

[Jcstroud]

26 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Thanks guys.  I'll put it in the chart as "95" then.  First numbered blade in the 90s.  

First time I have seen an 8mm anchor stamp on a maybe souvenir sword!!!!?????looks like I will have to investigate these multiple designs of the circled anchor stamps.....very curious...hmmm

[Jcstroud]

Compare the nakagos of these 2 blades and you can see that the ebay mumei is basically flat not well defined...not to mention the different stamps.....

[Jcstroud]

The 1940 Bujin-to ,aka,Rikusin-to "land battle sword specs clearly show specified shapes and dimensions for the Navy "Warrior" swords.

[John C]

3 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I'll put it in the chart as "95" then

Looks a bit like a 6 to me but could easily be a 9.

John C.

[Jcstroud]

Looks like we might have add extra large to stamp column in the souvenir chart for #95 first 8mm circled anchor stamp I have seen on a toyokawa blade why so many diferent ones I wonder anyone else?

[Bruce Pennington]

7 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

why so many diferent ones I wonder

I was hoping to detect a pattern of use with the different size stamps. My first suspicion was the small step would be found on blades made during the war, and the large stamp on Blades after the war. But it hasn’t worked out that way. I find both sizes on blades before and after the war. I personally suspect there were multiple inspectors and each one might have had his own stamp, that varied in size from each other. 

[Jcstroud]

7 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

find both sizes on blades before and after the war. I personally suspect there were multiple inspectors and each one might have had his own stamp, that varied in size from each other. 

I have read that there were 4,6,8,10 and 12 mm

Authorized stamp sizes.

Ihave also read that many forges had their own resident inspectors,such as Tenshozan Tanrenjo in Zushi,and Zenhiro Hattori's forge in Mishima city.I believe that Takayama forge had one as wellthe reason being is that Ihave noticed a pattern that Masahiro,Masanao,and Toyosuke have the same 4mm fishhook barbed circled anchor stamp in common with few exceptions....not to mention other commonalities.

[Kiipu]

On 9/20/2023 at 4:33 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

First numbered blade in the 90s.  

 

Make that two!

Japanese Navy Officer Shin Gunto Sword

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, Kiipu said:

Make that two!

I was hoping my statement would generate some more 90's numbers!  Thanks, Thomas, great find!  Interesting one, in that it has a finished/shaped nakago jiri, yet still has that heat generated stain.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Duplicate "55" for sale at Horst Auctioneers:

[Conway S]

Found this sword in souvenir fittings #99. Note the two mekugi-ana. It is hard to tell if the anchor stamp is visible in this picture or if it is under the habaki. It may be below the white paint smudge.

 

https://www.liveauct...ese-shin-gunto-sword

 

Conway

 

 

[Conway S]

Here's another #12 or possibly #3 with what is likely a replacement tsuba. I am unable to upload the pictures due to their original formatting. 

 

https://www.liveauct...se-ww-ii-naval-sword

 

Conway

[Bruce Pennington]

25 minutes ago, Conway S said:

souvenir fittings #99.

Great find, Conway!  Our first #99!  At first, I thought this might also be a regular steel blade, but you can see the stainless with cross-hatching in a couple spots.  Seems to be overlaid with some sort of corrosion.  It does have the large anchor, between the exposed original survace (not white paint) and the ana.

[Jcstroud]

Looks like each one has been modified in one way or another 99 has angle cut habaki with an offset Munemachi ,#3 the tsuba has been replaced... oh no I am becoming a critic ahhhhhh.!@#$?😁

[Jcstroud]

10 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Seems to be overlaid with some sort of corrosion.

Looks like bondo,Nice tassle

[Bruce Pennington]

29 minutes ago, Conway S said:

#12 or possibly #3

Let's go with "3", unless one of our translator experts has a better idea.  It's odd that the first stroke is slightly separated from the next 2, but "12" obvious, should be "+=".  Wish they had shown the disassembled fittings.  Likely would have had stamped numbers.

 

On the tsuba, I'm not bothered by it.  We have seen a mix of parts in these souvenirs.  Some with all-Navy tuska instead of Army fittings, even.

[Bruce Pennington]

Posting pics before the auction goes dead:

[Bruce Pennington]

Here's a late-war kaigunto (1 haikan) with a Takeyasu blades, painted number "430".  I think he must have been working Tenshozan late in the war.  This 3-digit number aligns with the idea, then he worked for Tenshozan making souvenirs, or at least there were surplus blades from him used for souvenirs.

 

Opinions Deciphering Kanji - Wehrmacht-awards

 

[Jcstroud]

This one seems to blur the line between latewar and postwar also appears longer at the tsuka having 12 diamond as opposed to11 on others suppose this blade could be from Takayama forge? Of Seki origin?tsuka is curved slightly as well.what you guys think?

[Bruce Pennington]

Came across this one posted by @Tomclutts HERE  We had discussed it last year, but haven't logged it into the survey yet.  I'm calling it #62 as the tsuba is stamped 62 as well, but it's got a 32 on the other side.

 

[Kiipu]

On 8/17/2023 at 8:59 AM, Conway S said:

 

 

This could be the only indicator of the sequence in which the souvenir swords were made.  In this particular case, it is the katakana character FU フ.  It is just an idea but worthy of comment nonetheless.

フ六五 = FU-65.

[jeep44]

On 8/25/2023 at 12:25 PM, Kiipu said:

 

Douglas, I note that your sword has two subassembly numbers on it.  One on each side of the tang.  My question is which of the two numbers do the parts match to, 7 or 64?

It's put away right now-it might be a week or so before I access my swords again, but I'll check