Nlf Gunto Discussion

[Conway S]

[Bruce Pennington]

@Conway S I'm hoping for a shot or 2 of the full package.  I like to keep am overall shot along with the nakago and blade.  Sometimes the rig is fully standard, but sometimes there are variations, like having more navy fittings than standard.

[Conway S]

[Jcstroud]

Question for  @Conway S does the nakago measure 8 7/8 inches ? The reason for asking is to establish a common characteristic .these type of swords with the flat cut tang appear to have longer originally and then cut to RJT spec length leaving 8mm+- for finishing

 A common trait for end war/postwar U.S. PX bought souvenir swords.imo

John S.

[Conway S]

@Jcstroud

 

John, 

 

It's for sale online so I am not sure of the length. What do you make of the anchor which looks like it may have been filed down? Is it possible this sword was made during the war and then altered for the souvenir sword program? I found another sword with the same signature with uncut tang. The fittings look pieced together. 

 

https://www.bradford...-to-sword_D854E11B44

 

Conway

[Jcstroud]

11 minutes ago, Conway S said:

@Jcstroud

 

John, 

 

It's for sale online so I am not sure of the length. What do you make of the anchor which looks like it may have been filed down? Is it possible this sword was made during the war and then altered for the souvenir sword program? 

 

Conway

First possible reason is they are illegal in Japan to this very day.Second reason is unstamped blades typically bring better money .Armory stamped usually means they were machine made in a non traditional manner or non Japanese steel. Now to answer the other question yes very likely surplus wartime made IMO.

[Jcstroud]

25 minutes ago, Jcstroud said:

It's for sale online so I am not sure of the length. What do you make of the anchor which looks

Now if you ask me would I buy it... if the price is right probably.These Takayama produced blades were alloy stainless and stay sharp for ages.they are killer blades,not nihonto,not cheap wallhangers not for the collector elite.would be great for dressing out a deer during hunting season.

 

[Jcstroud]

The latest posting I would not buy the supposed Masahiro has too many issues ragged mei,incorrect fittings,too many red flags. Imo I hope to say we are not confusing issues.

5 hours ago, Conway S said:

This I like because I own one very much like it. The Bradford auction sword I would avoid.too late sold already

 

John S.

[Conway S]

What you are saying makes sense! Alas, I don't need any more swords. I am running out of places to display my ever-expanding collection. I was hoping someone would talk me out of it and not encourage me.  The broken semegane bothers me on this one. But I guess it could always be replaced. I appreciate your input. 

 

Conway

[Bruce Pennington]

An interesting souvenir found by Thomas, posted HERE.  I'm adding it to this discussion for a couple of reasons.  It is a signed blade by Kiyomichi, with a long, unshortened nakago.  Thought it was relevant to the issue of nakago possibly being shortened to fit standard souvenir tsuka.  This one appears to be pretty long.  Maybe that's just an effect of the photography?  But we do have several nakago on file with original, shaped, un-cut nakago jiri.  To me, this tilts the scale back to the idea that crude, square jiri were simply mass produced, post-war blades, with no reason to give them a finished look since they were made specifically for souvenirs.  Looking through the chart, all signed blades have finished jiri, except Toyosuke blades, which seem to go both ways.  There are even some mumei blades with finished jiri.  

 

I compared my souvenir with my 1943 Yoshishige kaigunto.  The souvenir nakago was longer than the kaigunto but narrower.

Souvenir: L - 57.15cm  W - 6.55cm

Kaigunto: L - 56com    W - 7.70cm

 

 

My second point of interest on the Kiyomichi is the number: 2045.  Dave posted a late-war kaigunto with a Kiyomichi blade numbered 8224.  So either this Kiyomichi souvenir is a re-purposed war blade made before Dave's, or we have our first souvenir-made blade with a larger number than 2 digits.  I have a little difficulty imagining it to be a wartime blade, repurposed as that would require Tenshozan to have access to confiscated war blades.  I just don't see that as something that would have been allowed.  I think it's more likely Kiyomichi was one of the few guys that Tenshozan employed after the war, and we now have a 4 digit painted souvenir blade.  But that is all opinion.  Open to ideas.  Here's the souvenir, found on THIS SITE as linked by Thomas.

 

[John C]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

made before Dave's,

Bruce:

Two observations - 1) are we sure that last character is a number? It looks a bit strange for a 5; 2) I don't think (at this point in my research, anyway) that these are production numbers that should be viewed consecutively. If they are truly assembly numbers of some sort, 8224 could come before 2045, depending on what they mean. Not sure exactly what they mean yet. But as you know, I am usually wrong so please feel free to correct me!!

John C.

[Kiipu]

On 3/28/2023 at 9:10 AM, jeep44 said:

I didn't realize you were keeping a register of these swords-here's mine.

 

Douglas, I note that your sword has two subassembly numbers on it.  One on each side of the tang.  My question is which of the two numbers do the parts match to, 7 or 64?

[vajo]

Bruce those pictures of moses are photoshoped to bring out the best result. This blade never looks like in hand like those picture. He wrote ww2 polish. 

I say no.

The lines are wrong, the yokote is missing. And there is no longer a boshi. 

The blade is like any other souvenir sword bades. With or without a cicsled mei. 

 

[Jcstroud]

I agree this sword is an example of an polish gone bad. But that is no reason to critisize all souvenir swords because not all are bad blades. My opinion is this... any blade that will shave the hair off your arm after 78 years on the original polish is a bad ass blade.period.say what you want to .that will not change the facts.

John S.

[Jcstroud]

2 hours ago, vajo said:

The blade is like any other souvenir sword bades. With or without a cicsled mei. 

Your bias is obvious,and your spelling is terrible.What is cicsled? 

Ah it is so easy to be a critic yes?  😁

[John C]

41 minutes ago, Jcstroud said:

your spelling is terrible.

John:

Go easy, bro. English is not Chris' first language. Indeed, there are many people who live in different countries and speak many languages and they do quite well at getting their points across. 

Just my two cents at keeping the discussion civil. 

John C.

[Jcstroud]

Ok 

30 minutes ago, John C said:

John:

Go easy, bro. English is not Chris' first language. Indeed, there are many people who live in different countries and speak many languages and they do quite well at getting their points across. 

Just my two cents at keeping the discussion civil. 

John C.

Ok you got it just could not resist. A little tit for tat as it were.  Thanks

[Kiipu]

PX sword with a subassembly number of 四六.  I am starting to think these grow on trees.  They are everywhere.  Maybe Mr. Stroud is mass producing them in his basement to sale to unsuspecting tourists in Puerto Rico!

Suggestions on replacement of the Kashira or end cap

[John C]

39 minutes ago, Kiipu said:

number of 四六

interesting. One of our first duplicate numbers. With some 8,000 plus souvenirs being made, we should see some duplicates. 

John C.

[Jcstroud]

1 hour ago, Kiipu said:

PX sword with a subassembly number of 四六.  I am starting to think these grow on trees.  They are everywhere.  Maybe Mr. Stroud is mass producing them in his basement to sale to unsuspecting tourists in Puerto Rico!

KIIPU, You made my day I can not stop laughing. 

But I do offer tour guides  en serio.yo no estoy hodiendo.  

[Conway S]

Found two interesting swords that sold a very long time ago on Live Auctioneers. Unfortunately there is only one photo available for the first. If it's hard to read, the tag looks like it says 高山清平.

 

Conway

 

[Conway S]

Here is the second. To my eye it is the long Takayama-to mei including the polisher. Starting with third character down looks like 高山刀。The pictures are very small on Live Auctioneers so I cannot get a larger picture that is more clear. 

 

Conway 

 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

20 hours ago, John C said:

8224 could come before 2045

Considering how many blades were made during the war, I suppose the numbering would probably start over, even several times over the years.  If they were simply assembly/fittings shop numbers, then there would be no reason they couldn't.  Even SMR started over with each "line", though they used a katakana to keep track of each line.  Only the Type 95 went on without starting over.  

 

We now have 7 duplicated numbers: 45, 46, 65, 66, 68, 79, and 87.

 

 

[Jcstroud]

One theory of mine considering all that we have discovered about this type of swords is that theywere originally longer for cadet training in Toyama .reasons being the ubu ha,the longer nakago, overweight blades for the length,thicker kissaki ,conform to takayama 2nd design specs. Possible? As compared to the Bujin-to 1939 Naval Nlf specs ,aka Rikusen-to.  One other possibility is they were intended to be a Naval  Rinji Seishiki as their nakago length was 242mm w/ 2 mekugi ana.

[Bruce Pennington]

12 hours ago, Conway S said:

Here is the second. To my eye it is the long Takayama-to mei including the polisher. Starting with third character down looks like 高山刀。The pictures are very small on Live Auctioneers so I cannot get a larger picture that is more clear. 

 

Conway 

 

 

 

Thanks Conway!  That one is "kinsaku Takayamato Ishihara Masanao made"  I only can say that because we have another, almost identical, painted "81" found by @Jcstroud.  I've mistakenly labeled it as a Toyosuke in the file and chart, but I've corrected that and am posting the updated chart.  Oh, and now we have 8 duplicate numbers with two 14's.

Here's the look-alike 81

 

Souvenir Chart.docx

[Jcstroud]

On 8/25/2023 at 10:43 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

compared my souvenir with my 1943 Yoshishige kaigunto.  The souvenir nakago was longer than the kaigunto but narrower.

Souvenir: L - 57.15cm  W - 6.55cm

Kaigunto: L - 56com    W - 7.70cm

Hey, Bruce can you tell me the nakago length of your souvenir sword with kiri flatcut please. ?and also the takayama to in order to establish a chart for comparisons

[Bruce Pennington]

These are the nakago measurements 
 

Souvenir: L - 224mm  W - 6.55cm

Kaigunto: L - 213mm    W - 7.70cm

 

Man, I’m really bad at metrics! I had that messed up, but after talking to John, I got the link right. Still not sure if I have The width right.

[Kiipu]

16 hours ago, Conway S said:

... the tag looks like it says 高山清平.

 

Not hard at all and you have it right.

高山清平 Takayama Kiyohira.

[Conway S]

Thomas, 

 

Does Kiyohira refer to a name or is it a description of the sword? I could not figure out a good definition given the context. 

 

Conway

[Kiipu]

Kiyohira 清平 would be a name.  Not sure if the Takayama is referring to a last name or to the type of blade.