Nlf Gunto Discussion

[Jcstroud]

54 minutes ago, Peter Bleed said:

When it is all in a clear presentable form, I wonder if anybody in Japan would be at all interested in this work.

Like I said, WOW!

Speaking for myself I am sure that there will those who would not be interested at all because  the subject matter brings about a certain degree of mixed emotions when considering the Historic aspect of these " Works of industrialized art".Our intention is to bring to light the positive aspects and at the same time respectfully honor their works.If our research angers anyone I apologise in advance. It is not our Intention.I speak for myself. As to the others we will see.

But Thankyou for the complement it is a work in progress....

 

 

 

[Jcstroud]

Hey Bruce have you noticed that the Charles Turner Joy late war gunto has the same kabuto gane as the souvenir swords have?

[Jcstroud]

Here

[Bruce Pennington]

6 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

the same kabuto gane as the souvenir swords have

Yes.  I have seen actual gunto, like this, that have both the simplified kabutogane & the 1-piece fuchi/seppa.  The style clearly originated before war's end.  So, the Tenshozan operation with the souvenir either used the style to imitate, or they had lots of war suplus of them, and then produced their own.  But it's fascinating to see that they originated while the war was still on.

[Jcstroud]

10 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

But it's fascinating to see that they originated while the war was still on

Bruce your opinion,late war,end war,postwar,or surrendered?

[Bruce Pennington]

I assume this is not a souvenir sword? You can’t tell just by looking at the kabutogane.  I can see a fabric under the wrap, so the two of them combined points toward late war assembly.

[Jcstroud]

12 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I assume this is not a souvenir sword?

This kabuto- gane was filed on sides and heavily on the end and yes it is considered to be a souvenir this  is on Toyosuke #45 !

[Jcstroud]

Maybe the .navy army fittings mix was intentional. They probably called them  "Kaishin" guntos sounds familiar no?

[Jcstroud]

The goal was a nice, shiny souvenir sword for sale by the PX. Back then, the United States Army used the term "war trophy" or "war trophies" for military items acquired from the enemy. Hence the wording used to describe these swords after the war. Whatever parts that could be sourced were used so long as they could be made to look good. Once all the wartime parts were used up, then newly made parts were used. The contract would not have specified a certain pattern of sword to be made, just that it had eye appeal and was saleable. These swords are as stated by another collector the book end to an era. The last swords made in Imperial Japan, not as weapons, but as souvenirs for the occupationaires.

 

 

 

After reading hundreds of pages of archive documents, only one company was making swords after the war, Tenshōzan. The Japan Sword Company did not make these swords and could not get involved in any form of production until the peace treaty was signed in 1952.

 

 

 

 

 

トーマス

KIIPU I could not have said it better,I borrowed your comments from a 2020 post hope you dont mind definitely

Pertainant.    John

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

On 6/12/2023 at 9:47 PM, Jcstroud said:

Bruce your opinion,late war,end war,postwar,or surrendered?

This cloth-like material is also used in RS, and it should be some kind of waterproof fabric.

 

 

[Jcstroud]

Thoughts on this one?

Yes another one.....

[vajo]

The fabric of the nagamitsu gendai-to is burlap lackquered with clear urushi. I don't know if other use the same. But i think those souvenir swords have normal fabric painted black.

 

[Jcstroud]

1 hour ago, vajo said:

The fabric of the nagamitsu gendai-to is burlap lackquered with clear urushi. I don't know if other use the same. But i think those souvenir swords have normal fabric painted black.

Fairly sure that they used burlap .may I ask what is urushi? Ok I got it Japanese lacquer. Perhaps it was better in jungle combat situations.Do you know how stinky old rayskin can get?😁

[Kiipu]

15 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

KIIPU I could not have said it better, I borrowed your comments from a 2020 post hope you don't mind definitely pertinent.

 

I do not mind at all and that is why Brian archives older posts so that they can be reread down the road.  Below is the link so that others can find it.

A real WW2 naval sword?

[vajo]

Btw the sword in the thread "a real ww2 naval sword?" isn't a real blade. But thats another story. 

[Jcstroud]

18 minutes ago, vajo said:

Btw the sword in the thread "a real ww2 naval sword?" isn't a real blade. But thats another story. 

Well I would really like to hear it .see things from other peoples perspectives I search for items that match the topic .Now I am not interested whether you approve or not.your habit of downplaying what you do not like is tiring and not in the best interest of the study. Pardon but please keep it on the positive side .thank you.

[Kiipu]

5 hours ago, vajo said:

But I think those souvenir swords have normal fabric painted black.

 

Chris, interesting observation about the burlap on Type 100s.  Could the souvenir swords be made from canvass instead of painted fabric?

[John C]

Never looked at mine that closely, however now it looks like a heavily black lacquered cloth of some sort. The pattern seems too tight for burlap but too prominent to be canvas (as we know burlap and canvas today). But depending on the weave, I suppose it could be either one of those. 

John C.

[vajo]

Thomas 

I think too on the souvenir swords it is black/ deep blue painted canvas. 

Found that picture that looks very similar.

 

-----

A brown lacquered ito of a  Nagamitsu tsuka. You can see the rough burlap, maybe the same kind of burlap like sandbags?

 

 

This one shows red lackquered ito on burlap. It's a nagamitsu blade too.

 

 

 

[vajo]

12 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

Well I would really like to hear it .see things from other peoples perspectives I search for items that match the topic .Now I am not interested whether you approve or not.your habit of downplaying what you do not like is tiring and not in the best interest of the study. Pardon but please keep it on the positive side .thank you.

 

John I think you are looking for a reason to see souvenir swords as war swords to upgrade them. I don't really care because you can clearly see the difference in quality. Everything seems kind of thin and not of high quality. Even with the last showa-to and gendai-to from the end of the war, everything seems much more massive.

 

There are enough buyers of the souvenir swords who think they are special kai gunto. It's like the brontosaurus. Since 1975 it has been agreed that brontosaurs never existed and that they are apathosaurs. But no matter brontosaurs are in the mind. In 2015, after a long dispute, the Brontosaurus was recognized as a separate species. Although there is no evidence that it is a separate species. I think at some point Pluto will become a real planet again

[Jcstroud]

3 hours ago, vajo said:

John I think you are looking for a reason to see souvenir swords as war swords to upgrade them.

I think that is an incorrect analysis if that were true would I have posted a sword with such poorly made seppa? But I must say your reference to the Brontosaurus makes me want to share what you been smokin.🥳 ha ha ha.  

[Jcstroud]

To clarify I was quoting Kiipu's accurate assessment . The sword you posted was of questionable origin in respect of place of manufacture .

[Bruce Pennington]

6 hours ago, vajo said:

Pluto will become a real planet again

I hope so!  It still is, as far as I'm concerned.

[vajo]

As a Child i learned that in school Bruce.

 

"Mein Vater erklärt mir Jeden Sonntag unsere neun Planeten" 

 

 

[robinalexander]

They were real.... here is indisputable proof.

[Jcstroud]

In respect to War swords and peacetime swords I prefer blades without blood on them and I consider myself very fortunate to have found an all original postwar blade in of all places Puerto Rico of all places .That I can tell you does not happen everyday I can tell you that.  And it is not lightweight or flimsy.so put that in your pipe and smoke it with whatever else is there. Ha Ha Ha

😚

P.S. the word vajo in spanish means:LOW

[vajo]

8 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

 put that in your pipe and smoke it with whatever else is there. Ha Ha Ha

😚

P.S. the word vajo in spanish means:LOW

 

 

I would say stay away from Don Q

[Jcstroud]

Yeah I know it aint easy,But I have been trying !

[Jcstroud]

Here is one collected from Iwo Jima from a friend of Bruces posted in 2016.

[Bruce Pennington]

After searching my emails for the original message my friend sent me, I couldn't find more photos, but I did find an update on the Iwo Jima claim.  He added:

 

"My mom claimed he got it at Okinawa during the war, but I sometimes doubt that story. He was at Okinawa, but as far as know, only offshore (as a ship captain). At some point I'm going to research that more through deck log archives.  But I do know that from 1950 to 1952 he was stationed in Tokyo working for Gen. MacArthur. He would have a very good opportunity to get one of those "souvenir" swords then."

 

Sorry for the misleading original post.  I suspect his '50-'52 tour in Tokyo might account for the acquisition of this souvenir!