Nlf Gunto Discussion

[Bruce Pennington]

If you mean the nakago, yes, they are clearly two different blades. One is signed and the other is not.

[Jcstroud]

8 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Is the top one from our Toyosuke 45?

Yes they seem to be different probably from different shops.

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

from different shops.

It just struck me, that if Tenshozan was possibly contracting out to two or three different shops, it might explain the duplicate numbers!

[Jcstroud]

11 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

It just struck me, that if Tenshozan was possibly contracting out to two or three different shops, it might explain the duplicate numbers!

The  "gunto network" of Zenhiro Hattori was far reaching he outsourced ,and collected under contract as you know swords from multiple locations.many blades that were stamped with the toyokawa stamp were not made at the Arsenal I have read that around 70% were sourced from Seki.Determining the source as you know can be an exercise in futility to say the least. considering all we now know about Tenshozan's production 

They obtained 8747 swords in only16 months that requires outsourcing .

[Jcstroud]

41 minutes ago, Jcstroud said:

They obtained 8747 swords in only16 months that requires outsourcing .

That equates to 546 a month!

[Bruce Pennington]

Mantetsu was putting that many out per month.  I'm sure they had a pretty big operation, though.

[Jcstroud]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Mantetsu was putting that many out per month.  I'm sure they had a pretty big operation, though.

Very true but not postwar

[Jcstroud]

Were antirust swords frowned apon because they were not traditionally made? It seems as if Tenshozan had lots of unsold stainless at the end of the war? Does anyone know?

[John C]

2 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

It seems as if Tenshozan had lots of unsold stainless at the end of the war?

A follow-up question: Do we know whether or not these swords were left over stock or were manufactured post war? One document mentions "Since these swords were made after the end of the war, however, they are not war trophies." And another document uses the word "manufactured." It is unclear, however, if these documents are referring to the actual manufacturing of the blades themselves or just the assembly of existing blades into swords. 

Do we have anything definitive on that?

John C.

[Jcstroud]

14 minutes ago, John C said:

follow-up question: Do we know whether or not these swords were left over stock or were manufactured post war? 

I think both is the right answer. It is logical because certainly Tenshozan would have never been able to offer acontract if they had no inventory to start with. The question is how many were from stockpiles?

[Jcstroud]

1 hour ago, John C said:

Do we have anything definitive on that?

John C.

The best answer I can give you is that the decision to authorize purchase of the remaining 6097 swords " was based on the premise "that The swords were made after the wars end.it did not guarantee it.

[Bruce Pennington]

I have felt that the signed blades with finished nakago jiri were likely surplus, and the mumei blades with unfinished jiri were post-war manufactured.  Just a theory.  Why would a smith go to the trouble of signing and finishing a souvenir for their vanquishers, right?

[Jcstroud]

13 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I have felt that the signed blades with finished nakago jiri were likely surplus, and the mumei blades with unfinished jiri were post-war manufactured.  Just a theory.  Why would a smith go to the trouble of signing and finishing a souvenir for their vanquishers, right?

There is another possibility only a theory: if surplus gathered swords from toyokawa collected after the bombing were used perhaps they applied a "memorial name" to the swords to commemorate the lost helpers of Toyokawa who were "cut off" as were the nakagos. Yeah I know a far fetched theory but they deserve to be remembered.Like you said Bruce why sign it at all?.....truly another mystery.

[Jcstroud]

1 hour ago, Jcstroud said:

have felt that the signed blades with finished nakago jiri were likely surplus, and the mumei blades with unfinished jiri were post-war

What about those that had mei and were kiri or cut off.? Yeah I know picky,picky,picky

[John C]

48 minutes ago, Jcstroud said:

What about those that had mei and were kiri or cut off.?

The cutting of the nakago could just be for the sake of expediency. They may have been under pressure to fulfill the contract so they could not only save time by not finishing the nakago, but also reduce the need to fit the tsuka.

2 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I have felt that the signed blades with finished nakago jiri were likely surplus, and the mumei blades with unfinished jiri were post-war manufactured. 

That has been my impression as well. Makes sense to use the ones left over then streamline the process to fulfill the contract.

John C.

[Jcstroud]

4 minutes ago, John C said:

That has been my impression as well. Makes sense to use the ones left over then streamline the process to fulfill the contract.

John C.

One curious thing that many seem to miss is that every "souvenir sword " found to date has a Toyokawa stamp of one form or another yet they were Manufactured or produced at Tenshozan???when Toyokawa no longer existed.???????

[John C]

I don't think it is too strange to have the Toyokawa inspection stamp on a Tenshozan factory blade. The army PX contract went through Mr. Yao at Tenshozan, since they were the only factory allowed to continue to "manufacture" blades, however the blades could have still been inspected and assembled at Toyokawa arsenal. We just need more information on how the swords were actually produced.

John C.

[Jcstroud]

I am not sure if you are aware that on August7th 1945 Toyo kawa Arsenal was destroyed by reportedly 813 tons of 500 lb. bombs now I did not want to bring it up as a matter of respect butI think it would be unlikely for them to be built there. Secondly for them to be stamped that would make them illegal in Japan and unsellable there not to mention unwanted as well to this very day.

[Jcstroud]

1 hour ago, John C said:

We just need more information on how the swords were actually produced.

Not only how but when.the moment I think I have found the answer I have only found another question.

Ahhhhh the futility of it all...🤗

 

 

 

[Jcstroud]

Now on a more positive note...lets consider the high level of talent of all the swordsmiths associated with Tenshozan Tanrenjo for example : Fujiwara Kanenaga ,Kawamura Hiroshi his son,Enamoto Sadayoshi of the Gassan School,Kazuichi Masahiro,and many more... who in their right mind would not want one of these works of excellence? 

[Bruce Pennington]

22 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

What about those that had mei and were kiri or cut off.? Yeah I know picky,picky,picky

No, good point, and one that has bugged me too, ..... until this moment, when I remembered that my own kaigunto, a 1943 Yoshishige, has an unfinished jiri!!!  Can't believe I've forgotten about it for so long:

[Jcstroud]

Do you know where it was made? What forge or workshop?

9 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

kaigunto, a 1943 Yoshishige, has an unfinished jiri

 

[Jcstroud]

Hey Bruce I am gonna make your day!   Komiyama Yoshishige shares the same name as the temple at Tenshozan Tanrenjo the priests name was Kamita Yoshitada 3rd gen.

52 minutes ago, Jcstroud said:

9 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

1943 Yoshishige, has an unfinished jiri

 

 

[Jcstroud]

On 6/7/2023 at 7:10 PM, Jcstroud said:

1943 Yoshishige, has an unfinished jiri

Bruce, do you think originally had hotstamps before they were cut or just saving material. Second question do you know what forge he worked at?

[Bruce Pennington]

I never took the time to track him down, as to where he worked.  As to the jiri, it's a mystery.  In 1943, production, as far as I know, was normal.  I could see in the last year of the war, when we were pounding their productions sites, somebody doing a rush job to crank out blades, under demands for increased numbers! But that wasn't the case in '43.  And I don't personally see the purpose of cutting off a hotstamp.  I have no record of Yoshishige using one either.  

 

I could have been something as simple as human error.  Large pile of blades needing finish work, and one gets overlooked.  Or maybe that day when this blades was made, Yoshishige was behind his quota, or the forge was behind the quota and blades simply didn't get full finish work to speed up the process.  That would be my quess.

 

Sorry I couldn't offer more help!

[Jcstroud]

2 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

And I don't personally see the purpose of cutting off a hotstamp.  I have no record of Yoshishige using one either.  

I know I seem to full of theories but here is one more :perhaps they were sampling for metallic content analysis Tenshozan was famous for experimenting with different alloys. Seki as well under the guidance of Fuji wara Kanenaga for example.Not to mention rockwell hardness tests.your Yoshishige has a seki stamp correct?

[Bruce Pennington]

57 minutes ago, Jcstroud said:

a seki stamp correct?

Yes

[Bruce Pennington]

Found a duplicate "50" on This Warrelics Thread.  Similar to my souvenir "50" except the nakago jiri is shaped and finished.  The number is on the date side, rather than the mei side.  My 50 is on the mei side.

 

[Peter Bleed]

I stumbled on to this thread earlier today. Holy Cow! I will NOT say I "care" about this topic or that I think it contributes DEEPLY to the study of Nippon-to. BUT there is some really outstanding thought and work here. Thank you and WOW!

I sincerely hope that the major players - Bruce and John - will take a step back, organize the available information, and then published the results. When it is all in a clear presentable form, I wonder if anybody in Japan would be at all interested in this work.

Like I said, WOW!

Peter

[Bruce Pennington]

14 minutes ago, Peter Bleed said:

I sincerely hope that the major players - Bruce and John - will take a step back, organize the available information, and then published the results. When it is all in a clear presentable form, I wonder if anybody in Japan would be at all interested in this work.

Thanks, Peter!  Don't know if you've read our article on these discoveries yet, but it's in our Download section here:

It's a couple years old, and covers everything prior to our recent discussions on Toyosuke and the black painted number inventory.