Nlf Gunto Discussion

[Bruce Pennington]

I'm still in the investigation stage of this, and am posting on 5 forums, so forgive me if you see this on other website forums, but I'd like to spread a wide net, so to speak to gather more input. Also, the 2 pictures I tried to imbed in the discussion won't post that way, so they are added as attachments.   If you are able to help with either of the 2 requests below, please let me know:

 

Collectors of WWII gunto are well aware of the strange arrangement often called “Marine Landing Sword” or “Navy Landing Sword”.  As we all know the first name is bad because the Japanese did not have a Marine organization in WWII.  I will use the second, or “NLF”, for this discussion simply to have a name to use.

 

Pictured below, in all I’ve seen, they have a stainless-steel (or their version of it in the ‘40s) marked with a Toyokawa Navy Arsenal stamp.  They are usually unsigned, but I have seen 2 with kanji – one was signed, and the other simply read “resident of Nara.”  The koshirae are predominantly naval, but lack the rising sun seppa and have bright gold army fittings on the saya, including a single ashi (belt hanger).

 

 

 

Fuller, in “Japanese Military and Civil Swords and Dirks,” discusses naval forces working with land forces, calling them Naval Landing Forces, and shows a picture of navy officers wearing uniforms that are a combination of army and navy items.  One officer is wearing an army gunto (pg 65).  In several places in the book, he discusses how widely varied NLF gunto seem to be in fitting arrangements.  But he devotes a full page, pg 138, to this style gunto and discusses various theories about it, but concludes that it is his opinion they are “post-war assemblies.”

 

In discussing this style on Wehrmacht-Awards.com, a very knowledgeable and well respected member, Bob Coleman relayed the following:

04-09-2017, 06:21 PM

  #8

Bob Coleman

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Bob Coleman is offline

Join Date: Jan 2003

Location: NATURE'S WONDERLAND

Posts: 4,843

 

 

The naval sword is of the type put together from left over parts and sold post war as souvenirs to GI's by Japan Sword Company, which is still in business today in Tokyo. I have purchased four of these from Korean War vets who all gave me the same information as to where they acquired them. Tell tale signs are the single hanger, lacquer scabbard, solid iron tsuba without the sun ray plates and gilt painted fittings. All four that I saw were unsigned stainless steel blades with an anchor stamp and the end of the tang roughly snapped off. All four I bought also came with a cheap brown cloth sword bag.

 

 

In reply, “Sengoku” added:

 

Sengoku

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Sengoku is offline

Join Date: Mar 2016

Location: Leeds UK

Posts: 44

 

 

I have actually come across a reference to the occupation authorities approving the use of old stock to produce souvenirs for allied troops, and keep the artisans working and earning. I don't have any links to hand though.

 

 

I tried to contact The Japanese Sword Co, in Tokyo, but they have no published email address.  I did make contact via Facebook's Messenger and offer the following exchange:

 

 

 

 My first request is:  Their final statement clearly got lost in translation – if there is someone who could speak and write Japanese, would you be willing to write in Japanese, a request to answer in Japanese?  You could send it to me, I’ll copy and paste, and when they respond, I’ll bring it back to you for translation.

 

My second area of investigation involves Bob Coleman’s feeling that all the metal parts were painted gold.  I have found one owner, who happens to be a metallurgist, who checked and found his army fittings were indeed electro-gilded using brass (not gold), not painted.

 

So my second need is for another owner of this style, to check the gold-colored coating on the army fittings to see if it is painted or gilded.  I know an old AF buddy that owns one, and am checking with him, but if there are more out there who can check, more information is better!

 

Here’s my thinking:

 

While Bob’s information gained from his purchases are without question, all it actually tells us is that 3 guys bought gunto in this style from The Tokyo Sword Co.  It doesn’t tell us if the gunto were obtained, as is, by the company and then sold, or as Bob suspects, the company obtained supplies of parts and assembled them.  Sengoku’s info adds to the possibility that Bob’s theory is correct, but still doesn’t prove that it was done.

 

On the other hand, the evidence from my friends’ gunto is beginning to show that the army parts are electro-gilded, not painted.  There are only 2 choices on how this happened – 1.  Japanese craftsmen, during the war, gilded these parts to go on navy gunto; or 2.  The Japanese Sword Co paid someone to electro-gild these parts to create souvenirs.

 

To me, the gunto we have seen are all very uniform in appearance.  It seems to me that pieced-together items would have more variation.  Although, this could be understandable if The Japanese Sword Co obtained a large supply of fittings and blades made by a single manufacturer.

 

There have been no known photos of this style in use, or in surrender piles, however the canvas same’ and newness of parts points to late-war, 1945ish, if these were war produced, so that wouldn’t be unexpected.  All the blades I’ve seen are immaculate and clearly never saw action.

[Windy]

One identical to your photo sold at auction in Cambridge yesterday. It made £400 plus fees...so about £500. I'll dig out a pic later.

[Windy]

Actually, the Tsuba is different.

[Stephen]

and the ito and same

[Windy]

and the ito and same

Yup re te same, but Ito looks similar.

[jeep44]

This is my sword. My question is... was there another military sword that had a fuchi with an integral seppa? I've never seen one, so I doubt these would be "left-over" parts-they were made specifically for this pattern of sword. As for gilding, I have my sword here, but I really don't know how to tell-it has seen a fair amount of handling, and to me, the parts look to be made of brass, with the gold paint wearing off. I'll post a couple of close-ups.

[jeep44]

Here's a couple of close-ups. I notice that the sword you posted a photo of has Army menuki. My blade has the anchor stamp, and it has Naval menuki. I suppose we will never know, but this pattern of sword sure seems to be made too well and too consistently to be merely a souvenir intended for customers who knew nothing about Japanese swords.

[jeep44]

One last photo

[Bruce Pennington]

This is my sword. My question is... was there another military sword that had a fuchi with an integral seppa? I've never seen one, so I doubt these would be "left-over" parts-they were made specifically for this pattern of sword. As for gilding, I have my sword here, but I really don't know how to tell-it has seen a fair amount of handling, and to me, the parts look to be made of brass, with the gold paint wearing off. I'll post a couple of close-ups.

Douglas, great post!  Two important things you said: 1.  The one-piece fuchi/seppa is significant.  This is not a standard item that was being manufactured for other gunto.  The Japanese Sword Co was not likely to find a room full of these things.  I agree, they were most likely made specifically for this style gunto.  2.  You said the "paint" is wearing off the metal fittings?  Does anyone know if gilding can wear off?  If so, can you be sure it's paint?

[jeep44]

You can see the worn effect pretty clearly in the second photo of post # 7-whatever this coating is, it's very thin. I used the term "paint", but I really don't know.

[Dave R]

 Depending on thickness, gilding can wear off fairly quickly... Like so many other things, it all depends on the budget available.

[jeep44]

I was at an Antique Arms show today, and spotted another one of these swords, and took a few photos of it. I don't know if it will add anything to the discussion, but I guess it's apparent that this pattern of sword is not rare. The only real point of interest on this sword was the Tsuba-not the usual plain iron one.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks Douglas!  Yes, seems to have the same one-piece fuchi/seppa.  Very unique tsuba though!

 

Now that we are gathering more examples into the same discussion, I guess we are starting to see some variation - sharkskin saya, crescent moon tsuba.  Yet, these variations, so far, are the same variations one would see in any gunto where the Japanese soldier purchasing it, has the option of personalizing it.  So far, these variations, to me, tend to support the war-made, soldier personalized theory of these gunto.

[Dave R]

I went back to my copy of Fuller and Gregory 1996 edition, where they mention this sword on page 138. There they conclude that they are post war assemblages using a mix of wartime blades and new parts. That was then, this is now, and the internet has opened up whole new possibilities for research in what was once a largely ignored area.

 Just to throw another photo or two into the mix, what do you think is going on here? The pic's are from "Something Different" on the Axis History Forum. 

[Ian B3HR2UH]

I have seen thousands of swords bought back from the SW Pacific area and have never come across one of these . I am sure Bob Colemans theory is correct. Anyone who is trying to convince themselves that these are late war productions is , I think  ,kidding themselves .

Ian Brooks

[Bruce Pennington]

Ian - I agree that Bob Coleman's theory may be correct.  But until we have evidence to support or contradict it, it's just that - a theory.  What we are doing here is investigating the issue and looking for evidence.  If you have some (your anectodal experience counts) evidence to contribute, either way, I'd love to see it!

 

Dave - The first looks like a navy guy with a civilian gunto.  I don't think I've seen that before!  I don't see why they couldn't do it considering that the IJA was allowed to.  The second could be a navy seaman with his own army gunto, or it could be a guy on leave, holding his brothers gunto, or messing around at an army barracks with friends.  HOWEVER, F&G had a photo of several naval officers, one of them actually wearing a shingunto.  So, Iike we seem to have to learn over and over - Never say never, or always!!!

[Bruce Pennington]

I think DaveR first showed this picture on another thread, but Jareth at Warrelics brought it up again.  The third gunto from the top seems to have a double-ringed ashi like our NLF gunto.  While ashi made specifically to go under leather saya cover tended to be quite varied, I cannot find a reference of one with a double loop.  All seem to have a single loop, wide or skinny, around the saya.

 

If anyone has a reference showing a double-loop under-leather ashi style please let me know.  If not, this could be an actual photo of the NLF style gunto.

[Stegel]

An interesting read,

 

 

I'm sitting on the Post War assembled side of the fence on these.

 

Especially when mixed combinations of IJA and IJN parts are found on the one sword.

I think that the non-mixed types could possible be late war, either pure navy or army (with black scabbard and/or black same/material), but i have never known or heard of them as "NLF" issue.

The type 3 (44 pattern) was normally associated with NLF in decades past... but thanks to Nick's research, we know that it's not the case, and should be more correctly termed as the Type 0 (issued/enacted in 194"0") or 'contingency' issue.

Here's the link if interested: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/17717-deflating-another-myth-the-type-3-army-officers-sword/

 

I have a gunto, it is an Army issue with black suede covered wooden saya. It also came with the Sam Brown sytle belt (double prong buckle). In F&G it is mentioned as a Naval Land Garrison issue from memory, i'll have to double check and make sure.

From memory, i think the NLF were comprised of both naval land garrison troops and backed with army troops, hence the wide assortment of Koshirae types???

[Dave R]

 Just a quick comment, commissioned officers gunto are not issue but private purchase. There are arsenal produced blades certainly, but officers swords would be bought either from a high street vendor or from an officers club. This is why there are such variations in detail. NCO gunto are a different subject, usually an issue item, but some few seem to have been personal possessions.

Other photo's from the series already referenced ..."Japanese unit Surrendering to the 4th Marines, Japan 1945 probably Yokosuka naval base" The officer in the foreground of the first is holding a traditional Wakizashi in Buke-Zukuri mounts probably with a leather field cover on the saya. The sword surrendered in the second also looks to be in non-standard mounts.

[Bruce Pennington]

Apologies to anyone who's already read my deleted post!  I had posted a gunto that I thought was an example of an NLF gunto with poor tsuba and rewrapped ito.  Bob Coleman, at Wehrmacht-awards, corrected me and pointed out it was a 19th century blade/tsuba remounted for WWII in army fittings. 

 

Disregard!!!

[Bruce Pennington]

Well, a dissapointing turn in the NLF - Japanese Sword Co. investigation. I just got word back from them in answer to clarifying questions, and they deny neither finding already assembled gunto in this style nor assembling surplus parts to make them. Yet, we have fairly good evidence from Bob Coleman that US G.I.s did buy this style gunto from them after the war.

 

This COULD mean I missed a third question - Did you manufacture, or contract out for manufacture, new, this style gunto. Or it could mean someone simply brought a few of these in to sell, and the JSC bought and resold them. Or, and I would hate to think this of them, they are simply lying about it for their own reasons

[Ed Harbulak]

Bruce, don't forget that WWII ended over 70 years go. Anyone who was working at the Japanese Sword Company right after the war either died long ago or has been retired for decades. That means the current employees at JSC are very unlikely to know what was going on in the company before they were born and are unlikely to be able to answer your questions based on their own knowledge. Unless the records the company might or might not have kept from the time in question still exist and the current employees know where they are stored plus have the time to search through those records, they aren't likely to be of any help in your investigation. I doubt they are lying. More likely they just don't know and don't have the time to hunt through old records, if they exist, to find the answer to your question. Unfortunately, time has that kind of effect on things that happened in the past.

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks Ed. Sure. I was just hoping there would be a senior manager there who had some overlap and/or corporate knowledge of those days. Plus, I am aware that culutural differences may account for some reluctance to share any actual info that they DO have. Added to that is the still-lingering shame/imbarrassment of WWII subject matter.

 

But it was worth a shot at it!

[Dave R]

 Just today another of these turned up on https://www.facebook.com/groups/255263006217/?fref=nf again a Korean War aquisition, and this time with an Ishizuki used as a Kabuto-gane. Adds weight to the theory of them being post war.

[vajo]

The quality of these swords is pure and terrible. 

Look at a nco type95 the quality is much more better. These swords here looks always like kai gunto light. The condition is alwas like new? I didn't think that they ever seen a war. They a products of peace. Thats my thoughts about this swords. 

Btw. You found a lot of them in Germany. Why? I don't know, but i think many of them are sold from a company called "Frankonia" in the 70's and 80's

[PNSSHOGUN]

Personally I believe they are post war creations, all wartime parts but neither Kai or Shin gunto. If priced and sold correctly I see nothing wrong.

[Bruce Pennington]

Just today another of these turned up on https://www.facebook.com/groups/255263006217/?fref=nf again a Korean War aquisition, and this time with an Ishizuki used as a Kabuto-gane. Adds weight to the theory of them being post war.

Dave, haven't seen THAT before! Whoever did it, put a concerted effort into this. There are a LOT of these out there and have less variation that standard IJA and IJN gunto. Maybe that fact alone hints at post-war.

[Bruce Pennington]

Significant find! One of these for sale that comes with it's bring-back certificate. It's written out by the 8th Army Exchange and says it's a souvenir not a war weapon. By all appearances, it was sold by the PX!

 

I think these were being made as part of MacArthur's post-war effort to keep businesses running.

 

You can see more of it on this thread: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=984036

[Brian]

Hmmmm......veeerryyy interesting!
I think this may definitely be a missing link. Especially since it emphasizes that this isn't a war trophy. 
Japan Sword Co post war product maybe?

[vajo]

Thank you vey much Bruce for this. As Brian said that is a missing link in that kind of sword we often see in auctions. Well done.