Nlf Gunto Discussion

[Jcstroud]

Is it possible that the different anchor stamps could indicate different sources of production? Such as  Takayama,Seki,Tenshozan ? My reasoning is if you notice Masanao,Kanenao,and Toyosuke seem to have the same 8mm stamp in the same location if my memory serves me correctly. PS hey guys been a while hope you are all well.  JOHN 

[Bruce Pennington]

Nice to see you again, too, John!

 

Your idea is possible.  I had the vague theory that the large was from post-war Tenshozan, while the small was from wartime Toyokawa.

However, we (and I mean @Kiipu, @BANGBANGSAN, and @mecox) are trying to research the challenging idea that Toyokawa was not involved in making kaigunto at all and the circled anchor was a broad-based Navy stamp used by other/all Naval Arsenals.

 

So, much work to be done on the Navy side of the stamping house.

[Jcstroud]

Perhaps by grouping swords by stamp size,and also by swordsmiths known locations.In combination with physical traits such as paint color could help pin down location of fabrication.Such as Takayama for example.Well thats my 2 cents worth for now.

[Bruce Pennington]

20 minutes ago, Jcstroud said:

Perhaps by grouping swords by stamp size,and also by swordsmiths known locations.In combination with physical traits such as paint color could help pin down location of fabrication.Such as Takayama for example.Well thats my 2 cents worth for now.

I'll have a look through my files, John.  Been needing a project to chase.  I haven't spent much time on the kaigunto.  There's just not as many to sample, and they are mostly undated, so data is harder to build.  But I'll have a look.

[John C]

11 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

There's just not as many to sample,

Not to sound morbid, but is that because they "went down with the ship" or because there were simply fewer Naval officers?

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

12 hours ago, John C said:

is that because

Checking Wikipedia, they estimate that at the end of the war the Navy had 1.66 million personnel (don't know the percentage of officers) vs 5.4 million for the Army.  So right away, you can see there would be four times as many army gunto as navy.  Then, like you say, every ship that went down carried it's officers and kaigunto with it.

[Jcstroud]

On 10/31/2024 at 2:23 PM, Jcstroud said:

? My reasoning is if you notice Masanao,Kanenao,and Toyosuke seem to have the same 8mm stamp in the same location if

I reread my notes and it was the4mm stamp that was used predominantly

[Jcstroud]

I am going to go out on a limb on this comment: the souvenir swords with a  sheared off flat cut nakago were likely from Takayama forge and were originally longer training swords for Toyama training camp and were made to takayamas specifications then later cut under the direction of Kazuiichi Hattori.

[Bruce Pennington]

Interesting idea, John.  Certainly possible!

[Jcstroud]

Well one thing for sure a hack saw wont do nothing to that metal .that is some tough stuff

[Bruce Pennington]

After our recent discovery that the circled-anchor stamp is most likely a Navy acceptance stamp, not specific to Toyokawa Naval Arsenal, it is still a mystery as to why all these souvenirs were stamped.  I have 100 charted now, and only 4 are not stamped.

Options:

1. The massive majority of blades used by Tenshozan for the souvenir were surplus from the war.  If so, did the Navy inspector actually inspect/approve of blades that had not been finished?  The nakago jiri on most of them were unfinished.  I suppose this is possible, considering the loosening of quality requirements in the last year of the war.

2.  There was a living Navy inspector working with Tenshozan after the war, stamping blades.

3.  Tenshozan had the stamp and used it for the Wow effect on the souvenir blades as they made them.

We may never know.

[Jcstroud]

The records of the army documents contract name "The Japanese Naval Sword  Company " aka Tenshozan Tanrenjo .I suppose the swords would have to have at least a element of Naval characteristics to satisfy the army contract .Along with " premise " that the blades were not used in combat  as a condition of  the contract.

[John C]

3 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

Naval characteristics

John:

You might be able to answer this - are the handles on the souvenirs slightly shorter than a regular gunto? I was thinking that if so, it could explain why the nakago on the blades were so abruptly cut in order to fit the souvenir. 

 

John C.

[Jcstroud]

The records of the army documents contract name "The Japanese Naval Sword  Company " aka Tenshozan Tanrenjo .I suppose the swords would have to have at least a element of Naval characteristics to satisfy the army contract .Along with " premise " that the blades were not used in combat  as a condition of  the contract.

[Jcstroud]

Hey JohnC ,to answer your question the nakagos of the Takayama-to  was about 1 shaku or 303mm

The Rinji seishiki 242 mm the R.J.T. nakago spec.was 217 mm the souvenir swords 226mm,1940 naval spec was 206mm std kosherai. If my notes are correct. Itrust all is well with you and yours.

John Stroud

The measurement for the takayama to is an approximate measure as I have yet to physically measure one .Using length to width ratio to calculate from photos.

[Jcstroud]

18 hours ago, John C said:

John:

You might be able to answer this - are the handles on the souvenirs slightly shorter than a regular gunto? I was thinking that if so, it could explain why the nakago on the blades were so abruptly cut in order to fit the souvenir. 

 

John C.

It is my belief that the souvenir blades were originally 2nd design Takayama- to's with long nakagos intended for Takayama Ryu and or Toyoma Ryu for training cadets .Being surplus were collected by Zenhiro Hattori with the help of his Son in law Eiji ,then hot cut to fit standard RJT length koshirai at the Tenshozan Tanrenjo

[John C]

That could be. We may never know without definitive documentation. Hot cutting the nakago of pre-existing blades makes sense because the limited time they had to fill the orders after the red tape would have necessitated the need-for-speed.

 

John C.

[Jcstroud]

Once more I am going out on a limb on this commentary : I beleive that Toyosuke was the name used to designate swords for Toyama Ryu ,and Takeyasu name was used to designate swords for Takayama Ryu for Batto jutso training.And were likely made by the same swordsmith filemarks and other characteristics being the same suchas green paint,black paint,4mm naval acceptance stamp,hot cut nakagos...

[Jcstroud]

Tenshozan Tanrenjo produced 8747 swords in 436 days ending in March 1947 that means they produced 20.06 swords a day .Since they had 20 fitting rooms that would mean 1 sword per day per toshigi.

[moriarty]

On 12/3/2024 at 7:19 AM, Jcstroud said:

Once more I am going out on a limb on this commentary : I beleive that Toyosuke was the name used to designate swords for Toyama Ryu ,and Takeyasu name was used to designate swords for Takayama Ryu for Batto jutso training.And were likely made by the same swordsmith filemarks and other characteristics being the same suchas green paint,black paint,4mm naval acceptance stamp,hot cut nakagos...

Greetings John, 

 

Pretty interesting insights, I had certainly heard of the military ryūha influencing some aspects of blade-making, but you really bring the picture together. Would you say this influence lasted a major part of the war period, or did it wane significantly? 

 

                     Kind Regards, 

                                              Maurice

[Jcstroud]

Definitely Takayama Masakiichi being a 10th Dan in Kendo,had alarge influence in Naval cadet training and later in war also for the Army training in Toyama.He Instucted Seki area swordsmith on how to build a killer blade in essense and practicality.He was one bad dude .

[Jcstroud]

13 hours ago, moriarty said:

Would you say this influence lasted a major part of the war period, or did it wane significantly? 

Toyama Ryu had 6 Dojos for sword trainng and 1 for bayonet training if my notes are correct. Still researching...

[Jcstroud]

Each of the Dojos in 1946 were 200ft long and 40 ft. Wide times 7 total equals 56000 square feet of floor space for cadet training .they must have had  a large surplus of swords there at wars end that were not used in combat making them eligible for satisfying U.S. requirements for purchase as souvenir swords .

[Bruce Pennington]

A mumei duplicate #36 on this http://Collectors Armory California site:

[Bruce Pennington]

Exciting News!  

 

A second souvenir has showed up with PX cert.!  A Hiratoshi blade with large circled-anchor, in standard souvenir fittings.  Comes with 8th Army PX certificate and shipping box from 1950.  At this Mileston Auction.  Starting price is $1,000USD.  I'd go for it, and would love to have it but I'm in some pretty deep debt already and would have to buy it on credit.  I hope one of us could get it from the auction!

 

 

 

Interesting note, that this is the first Hiratoshi we have in souvenir fittings.  I have several of his blades on file, but none of them are souvenir.  They are all kaigunto.

[Bruce Pennington]

Comparing the 2 certificates:

[vajo]

Bruce it is a souvenier sword with a fantasy signature.  I have a Louis Trenker ice pickle my father bought me 1974 in a shop at the lake Königssee. Same vibes.

[mecox]

Bruce and Chris, its an interesting example package of a post-war souvenir, showing the mixed koshirae parts.  The kodogu all look to be gilted shingunto, and the habaki silver coated (but poorly made).  I would think all that work is post-war refit/upgrade.  But as you note unusual for a souvenir Hiratoshi.  Looking at the blade I would think it is a wartime work.  

In the update of Naval Swords Part 2 we looked at Tenshozan closely and have 7 Hisatoshi. 

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, vajo said:

Bruce it is a souvenier sword with a fantasy signature.  I have a Louis Trenker ice pickle my father bought me 1974 in a shop at the lake Königssee. Same vibes.

Yes, I understand.  But that is characteristic of many of the late-war mei.  Like Mal said, we have 7 others with this mei, that's just how they look.

[Polaria]

Of course it is a souvenir. It says so on the certificate.