Nlf Gunto Discussion

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, Kiipu said:

This could be the only indicator of the sequence in which the souvenir swords were made

Ahhhh, the IROHA system!  Excellent idea!  I'm going through my files for more.  Unfortunately, not many posts include that shot, and even those that have, I often didn't save that one as I thought it unnecessary.  I found this on my souvenir #50, but I can't recognize the kana.  Can you?  

To further the thought, at over 8,700 swords, and 47 IROHA kana, they would go through these almost twice in the total production.  Wonder if they differentiated between the first run of the kana and the second.

[Bruce Pennington]

Here's one, but no kana.  It has an extra "4".  Hmmm.  just noticed the "3" on mine above, ..... getting interestinger and interestinger!

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Another FU, on a mumei blade #89

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Another "4" on a mumei #16:

 

[Kiipu]

On 10/7/2023 at 1:46 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Can you?

 

Maybe YA ヤ?

[Bruce Pennington]

That is all I have photos of.

[Bruce Pennington]

7 minutes ago, Kiipu said:

Maybe YA ヤ?

Could be.  So the 30th series or the 77th series.

[Kiipu]

I think the single digit handle number on yours is an Arabic 3.

[Kiipu]

I have also noticed marking(s) inked inside the scabbard mouth.  Below is a link to one of these scabbard markings.  In this particular case, it looks like the katakana character ホ HO.

Japanese sword signature!

[Conway S]

8 hours ago, Kiipu said:

 

This could be the only indicator of the sequence in which the souvenir swords were made.  In this particular case, it is the katakana character FU フ.  It is just an idea but worthy of comment nonetheless.

フ六五 = FU-65.

Thanks for pointing that out @Kiipu. Could 伊 also be used as a  prefix for an assembly range? The character is found on the unsigned side of the nakago. Also just noticed #65 Masahiro was possibly 四九 first. 

 

Conway

 

[Jcstroud]

Another"fu"for you

[Kiipu]

On 10/7/2023 at 8:00 PM, Conway S said:

Could 伊 also be used as a  prefix for an assembly range?

 

Your brilliant Conway!  The kana characters have an origin in kanji characters.  For example, Japanese submarines used the iroha order for numbering.  In formal documents, 伊 is used instead of イ.   However, the conning tower would use an イ followed by a number.

伊 = い, イ = I.

呂 = ろ, ロ = RO.

波 = は, ハ = HA.

仁 = に, ニ = NI.

For the rest, click on the characters at the link below.  In the column to the right, find the characters 字源 [character source] and the source character will be shown.

いろは順

 

Now, back to swords.  You answered something that has been nagging me for awhile.  I remember seeing a black painted 呂 prefix on a sword tang and was wondering why they would use that character.  I thought maybe it was the first character in the name of the shop or the fitter.  I now think one of the swordshops could have used the kanji source characters as a prefix.  What do you think Conway?

 

cc @SteveM

[Jcstroud]

27 minutes ago, Kiipu said:

 

Your brilliant Conway!  The kana characters have an origin in kanji characters.  For example, Japanese submarines used the iroha order for numbering.  In formal documents, 伊 is used instead of イ.   However, the conning tower would use an イ followed by a number.

伊 = い, イ = I.

呂 = ろ, ロ = RO.

波 = は, ハ = HA.

仁 = に, ニ = NI.

For the rest, click on the characters at the link below.  In the column to the right, find the characters 字源 [character source] and the source character will be shown.

いろは順

 

Now, back to swords.  You answered something that has been nagging me for awhile.  I remember seeing a black painted 呂 prefix on a sword tang and was wondering why they would use that character.  I thought maybe it was the first character in the name of the shop or the fitter.  I now think one of the swordshops could have used the kanji source characters as a prefix.  What do you think Conway?

 

@SteveM feel free to chime in.  Comments, corrections, or constructive criticism always welcomed.

Seems they may have used the iroha song to establish a first 100,second 100 etc....?that would mean Toyosuke #45  is the  145th of 8747?

[Conway S]

@Kiipu I am no expert. It just clicked in my head after you brought up the フ that 伊 was maybe a kana symbol. Originally when I saw it on the Takayama-to #65 I was thinking there was some relationship to the Inaba forge.

 

Interesting for sure the combination of numbers and different formats (Roman Numerals on habaki, Arabic/Chinese numerals on fittings) the Japanese used. There are more characters below the 伊 but unfortunately the heat marks from shortening the jiri damaged them. Probably not correct, but looks like 伊五六.

 

Conway

 

[John C]

@Kiipu

Thomas:

Could one of the two symbols on my #66 fall into this category? I assumed one was just a number 5.

 

John C.

[Kiipu]

Hi John, I would say ヤ/YA for the top and 五/5 for the right.  The left, as you already know, is 六六/66.  FYI, the handwriting is reducing the strokes to a minimum.

 

Another comment is that the subassembly numbers can be painted on either side of the tang.  I wonder if this was deliberate to alternate the location of the subassembly numbers on the tangs.  This would help reduce confusion when reaching 99.  Switch to the other side of the tang and start at 1.

[SteveM]

10 hours ago, Kiipu said:

I now think one of the swordshops could have used the kanji source characters as a prefix. 

 

Yes, this sounds like a very plausible hypothesis.

Steve

[Mick B]

 

thanks Bruce

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

13 hours ago, Conway S said:

伊五六.

Conway,

Do you have more photos of this one?  Nakago, both sides, and one of fittings?

[Bruce Pennington]

19 minutes ago, Mick B said:

 

Hoping might some get feedback on Gunto I just bought from small local auction house

Hi Mick!

Recommend you delete your post on this NLF thread, and start a new one with the "Start New Topic" button at the top.  It will be helpful if you tap the small bamboo peg from the side of the handle and remove it.  There is often writing on the tang from the swordsmith who made the blade, and it will allow you to remove the handguard for a clear shot of the writing.

[Bruce Pennington]

13 hours ago, John C said:

 

Could one of the two symbols on my #66 fall into this category? I assumed one was just a number 5.

John,

Is this from the 66 you posted earlier from an ebay sale?

[Jcstroud]

Here is a chart to help from Japanese-lesson.com

[Conway S]

2 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Conway,

Do you have more photos of this one?  Nakago, both sides, and one of fittings?

@Bruce Pennington pictures of this one are on Page 13 of this thread. 

 

To summarize, 

65 in Arabic numerals inside saya throat

フ六五 = FU-65. on the tsuka, 

六五  on signed side of nakago with old numbers underneath

Filed over large anchor stamp on the signed side of nakago

伊 followed by two unreadable characters on the unsigned side

Stamped 65 on unsigned side of nakago 

 

I have the sword. Let me know if you need any more pictures or clarification. 

 

Conway

[Bruce Pennington]

15 minutes ago, Conway S said:

Page 13 of this thread. 

Thanks buddy!  Have those on file, just wanted to confirm.

[John C]

3 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Is this from the 66 you posted earlier from an ebay sale?

This is the one I own. 

 

John C. 

[Bruce Pennington]

Just trying to post your tsuka numbers in the right file.  These are the 66s I have in the chart.  Yours must the the middle one?

 

Mumei	ND	Small	RS saya, gold cord	N/A	Unknwn	66	Affiliated Auctions
Mumei	ND	Large	Standard	Texture	No	66	Ebay/JohnC
Mumei	ND	Large	Standard, navy semegane, gold cord	Texture	No	66	Ima-usa.com

[Jcstroud]

On 10/8/2023 at 9:11 AM, Jcstroud said:

Another"fu"for you

Correction it is a "he" hiragana symbol.....ooops

[Kiipu]

24 minutes ago, Jcstroud said:

Correction it is a "he" hiragana symbol.....ooops

 

The other John, you had it right the first time.  Rotate the picture counterclockwise 90 degrees.  Yours is written from top to bottom while Bruce's is written from left to right.

フ三四 = FU 34.

 

FYI, I had to edit my posts above as I was getting scabbard and wooden handle markings intermixed.  All sorted out now.

[Jcstroud]

1 hour ago, Kiipu said:

The other John, you had it right the first time.  Rotate the picture counterclockwise 90 degrees.  Yours is written from top to bottom while Bruce's is written from left to right.

フ三四 = FU 34.

Interesting observations you all may have solved the mystery of the tsuka numbering system! 

[John C]

5 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Yours must the the middle one?

I assume so. Nomenclature seems to fit (although I did buy it off of ebay from a dealer in Texas). There isn't anything else special (identifiable) about it, although I believe the scabbard insert has the number 66 written on it in western numbers.

 

John C.