Nlf Gunto Discussion

[Kiipu]

On 8/25/2023 at 5:53 PM, Conway S said:

Here is the second. To my eye it is the long Takayama-to mei including the polisher.

 

Conway, your getting good at this!  Below is the full inscription excluding the polisher which is lost to pixelization.  As Bruce indicated, the swordsmith is Ishihara Masanao.

謹作高山刀　刀匠　石原正直

[Jcstroud]

https://www.warrelic...-performance-715257/

 

Thanks to @Kiipu@Bruce Penningtonhave discovered an article of the late Nick Komiya at the War Relics site: very relative to this topic ...check it out!

John S.

Nlf they were.

[Kiipu]

Uploaded the various links to the postwar PX sword for GBF & WRF.

GBF: NLF Gunto Discussion, Post #68

WRF: NLF Gunto Discussion, Post #38

[Conway S]

Here is another souvenir from Griffin Militaria.  This is the only full shot of the nakago. If the nakago-jiri is shortened they didn't square it off which I why I wanted to point it out. See link for more pictures. 

 

Conway

 

https://griffinmilit...cer-kai-gunto-sword/

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

25 minutes ago, Conway S said:

Here is another souvenir from Griffin Militaria.  This is the only full shot of the nakago. If the nakago-jiri is shortened they didn't square it off which I why I wanted to point it out. See link for more pictures. 

 

Conway

 

https://griffinmilit...cer-kai-gunto-sword/

 

#八七

[John C]

2 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

#八七

Looks like the shadow of what used to be a 6 under the 7. 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

I see what you're looking at, John.  I have often looked at what I thought were faint stamps on blades, that upon getting better photos, turned out not to be.  I think I'll stick to the plainly veiwed numbers and say we now have a third 87!  I checked the other 2 and they are clearly different blades.  So, it's quite early, but I think we are starting to see why we are not seeing souvenir numbers in the hundreds or thousands.  They likely started over at 99 or 100.

 

Masahiro Takayamato	ND	Uknwn	Standard	Unknwn	Yes, squared	87	Swbeck55; Warrelics
Mumei	ND	Large	Standard	Unknwn	Yes, shaped	87	Griffin Militaria
Toyosuke	ND	Uknwn	Standard	Unknwn	No	87	Alex W, Warrelics; NMB

[Bruce Pennington]

I guess I should wait until I've reviewed all of Thomas' updates on the other forums!  He's uncovered a triplicate "45" on Gunboards:

 

Toyosuke	ND	Small	Standard	Unknwn	No	45	Jcstroud; NMB
Mumei	ND	Small	Standard	Unknwn	Unknwn	45	Ian Lim, W-A
Mumei	ND	Large	Standard	Smooth	Yes, shaped	45	Type-14, Gunboards

[John C]

I guess starting over at 100 would indicate some sort of batch process. But it seems only a few smiths used a letter to differentiate batches. (I know - I know.."Batches? We don't need no stinking batches.")

Seeing duplicate numbers could indicate some sort of subassembly process whereby the numbers stand for parts in a bin. But I think the numbers go too high for that - anywhere from 2 to 4 numbers (including all blades, not just souvenir). 

And there is that picture you posted of the polishers in the factory where all of the blades seem to be marked in the 300's. Seems odd, unless it does refer to some sort of batch process.

In addition, the souvenir blades only use black paint. Is there any significance to that?

Bottom line is I'm still not sure exactly what they mean. 

John C.

[Jcstroud]

15 minutes ago, John C said:

addition, the souvenir blades only use black paint. Is there any significance to that?

Bottom line is I'm still not sure exactly what they mean. 

John C.

I have noticed a seeming pattern the green paint combined with the black 2 digit numbers ,combined with the 4mm circled anchor stamp with fishhook style barbs,and flat cut tangs all seem to have come from Takayama forge ,also the same swordsmith names.

Perhaps these swords were collected by Tenshozan workshop

As salvagable seconds that were not spec compliant.the green paint probably designated them for army px contract use.

[Kiipu]

These black painted numbers on PX swords are called subassembly numbers.  They were merely to keep the parts together when the sword was being assembled at the factory.  They would simply restart at 1 after reaching 99 or 100.

 

The exception to this subassembly method is the PX swords made by Mitsunaga 光永.  I have yet so find one with black painted numbers.

[John C]

2 hours ago, Kiipu said:

These black painted numbers on PX swords are called subassembly numbers.  They were merely to keep the parts together when the sword was being assembled at the factory.  They would simply restart at 1 after reaching 99 or 100.

Thank you, Thomas. I hadn't seen anything in writing that says that. Does this also apply to other swords where they use a 3 or 4 digit number?

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

Correction to my previous post: I was focusing on the Toyokawa arsenal, when I should’ve been focusing on the location of Tenshozan forge, located in Kamakura.  

[John C]

On 6/17/2023 at 1:19 PM, Kiipu said:

Chris, interesting observation about the burlap on Type 100s.

Thomas:

A day late and a dollar short, but I just noticed this from Ohmura (emphasis added):

According to Major Oto's memoirs, "Due to the shortage of supplies at the end of the war, the iron sheath of the soldier sword and the Type 95 military sword was allowed to be made of wooden sheath. Wajima's lacquerware cooperative
With the cooperation of the tree, we wrapped the hemp cloth bayasu around the wooden sheath of the Park tree and glued lacquer to give it a dry finish in the national defense color."

 

John C.

[Conway S]

@Jcstroud

On 8/18/2023 at 11:00 AM, Jcstroud said:

Question for  @Conway S does the nakago measure 8 7/8 inches ? The reason for asking is to establish a common characteristic .these type of swords with the flat cut tang appear to have longer originally and then cut to RJT spec length leaving 8mm+- for finishing

 A common trait for end war/postwar U.S. PX bought souvenir swords.imo

John S.

Measuring from the nakago-jiri to the mune/ha-machi is 9 inches on the dot. Only signs of green paint are on the habaki. Not sure if it was intentional or not.

 

Conway

[Jcstroud]

So far we have noticed  NAKAGO lengths of 

206 mm for Kai guntos

217 mm for Shin guntos

226mm for souvenir gunto

242mm for Rinji Seishiki

265mm for Takayama to that were uncut so far.....and of course you will see variances from these but it seems to be an indication of intended usage or service branch destination.  Thoughts anyone?

[Conway S]

I found this "interesting" sword today for sale by Showa22. I have not yet seen a sword with only 高山 on the nakago. It is unclear what stamp if any is located above the date on the reverse side since the photos are taken from outer space. This does not look like a 高山刀 given the kissaki shape. Any thoughts as to whether the signature is fake? I am not aware of anyone signing as Takayama. Thanks. 

 

Conway 

 

https://www.ebay.com...er=artemis&media=SMS

[Mark]

Conway

 

are you sure the second kanji is Yama?  looks a bit like Masa to me. 

[Conway S]

You're right, Mark. It's 高正. Looks like he was a Seki smith. I also saw the seller previously had this exact listing and write up on eBay as Takamasa. 

 

Conway

[Jcstroud]

I would be very cautious about swords offered by showa22 he has been the source of many controversies  over the last few years.I am not condemning only saying study them well before making any decisions.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Posting pics.  The small stamp is the "NA" stamp of Nagoya Army Arsenal.  Dominant stamp found on 1943 blades.  I have 4 other Takamasa on file, but this is only the second with the Na stamp.  This one is November 1943, the other is January 1944.

 

[Conway S]

11 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

I would be very cautious about swords offered by showa22 he has been the source of many controversies  over the last few years.I am not condemning only saying study them well before making any decisions.

 

I agree with that. I fell under the Showa22 spell for a moment as I didn't look closely at the second character before my initial post. I am aware the seller lists some questionable pieces with mis-matched koshirae and polishing half measures... They did have a General's grade Type 19 parade sword that looked very tempting recently. But my suspicion is always high when sellers take pictures from 3 feet away. 

 

Conway 

[DTM72]

7 hours ago, Conway S said:

They did have a General's grade Type 19 parade sword that looked very tempting recently. But my suspicion is always high when sellers take pictures from 3 feet away. 

 

Conway 

I was just about to bid on that one as the fittings and saya looked mint condition. ALL the blade pics were blurry and the blade appeared to have old corrosion that has been buffed away. Sold for just under $850. I pray that someone got a good deal. <-- that someone was not me. lol. I couldn't trust the blurry pics.

[Jcstroud]

1 hour ago, DTM72 said:

But my suspicion is always high when sellers take pictures from 3 feet away. 

In this day and age there is no excuse for blurry pictures especially high volume sellers. These days you can get free phones that will take photos 100x better than that.

[Conway S]

On 8/28/2023 at 1:16 PM, Kiipu said:

These black painted numbers on PX swords are called subassembly numbers.  They were merely to keep the parts together when the sword was being assembled at the factory.  They would simply restart at 1 after reaching 99 or 100.

 

The exception to this subassembly method is the PX swords made by Mitsunaga 光永.  I have yet so find one with black painted numbers.

I saw this Mitsunaga souvenir that sold yesterday with painted subassembly number 二五. Does anyone know the length of the nakago on these? I saw the one Bruce posted earlier was also not shortened. 

 

Conway 

[Conway S]

[Jcstroud]

2 hours ago, Conway S said:

Does anyone know the length of the nakago on these? I saw the one Bruce posted earlier was also not shortened. 

Normally the souvenir swords nakago  are 217 mm finished and 226 cut and unfinished seeming to conform to rjt specs but you will find exceptions.

John S.

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, Conway S said:

number 二五.

Nice find, Conway, thanks!  Didn't have that one.  There's one for sale on Zevantigues.com, but no nakago photos.  I've asked them for photos and will update if they respond.

[Conway S]

@Bruce Pennington Subassembly number 66.  

 

Conway

 

https://www.ima-usa....rd-matched-number-66

[Bruce Pennington]

Adding photos, thanks Conway!  We now have triple numbers on 45,66, and 87.