Nlf Gunto Discussion

[vajo]

No it was sold from a seller. Why is it important for you to know who has the sword? That mei in that souvenier sword is fake. Like the other mei on that kind of swords. Compare those mei you find with real swords.

[vajo]

Here is a another fake Mitsunaga mei from a souvenier sword.

 

same crude.

 

[Jcstroud]

It really astounds me that you make statements that shows your prejudice against this type of late war/post war Japanese swords without a shred of evidence to back up 

Your outlandish claims

It seems to me you discredit them so you can  buy them cheaper

To resell later.

[vajo]

I think this older tachi from early showa era could be that Mitsunaga from the wartime period.

 

The mei is nearly the same. Only the last stroke on Mitsu is different but between these two swords are +- 20 years?

 

He was born 1918

[vajo]

23 minutes ago, Jcstroud said:

It really astounds me that you make statements that shows your prejudice against this type of late war/post war Japanese swords without a shred of evidence to back up 

Your outlandish claims

It seems to me you discredit them so you can  buy them cheaper

To resell later.

 

Of course i discredit it and buy those swords cheap and resell it for a lot of money . When you think in that way all is said. 

 

Belive your conspiracy theory about those swords.  

[Jcstroud]

Oh sheisen where is the Don Q,I need a shot!   He he he

[vajo]

The good thing about those Toyosuke swords is that every sword has a unique signature from the same smith 

Every signature is unique. Great. 

 

 

[Stephen]

1 hour ago, Jcstroud said:

Hey Stephen you finally

Came out of hibernation

Just not in this room mate

[Jcstroud]

Judge each blade on its individual merit. I believe that the purpose of this forum is to educate ,help and inform not to ridicule those whom you think are inferior.that helps no one so please keep it on the positive side will you.    Mr.Vajo

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jcstroud]

Fyi Noguchi Heiichi as you probably know was a RJT smith before working at Tenshozan Tanrenjo he was born July 5th,1918  as a

smith in both locations would indeed explain the differences in the mei as seki had their cutters as well as Tenshozan. Now say what you want but back it with facts not conjecture.  Respectfully  John S.

[John C]

3 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

differences in the mei as seki had their cutters as well as Tenshozan.

I have always wondered about that. Below is an excerpt from the Specifications for Processing Military Swords:

 

11. The blacksmith (including quenching) and the engraver must be the same person.　　

 

But it has been noted many times on this forum that shops had mei cutters. Are there any "evidentiary" documents that support the notion of a specified mei cutter? I'm not doubting it, just would like to have a copy of the document.

John C.

[Jcstroud]

Mei oh mei oh mei!!!!!😄

[Jcstroud]

6 hours ago, John C said:

. The blacksmith (including quenching) and the engraver must be the same person.　　

That was the R J T army spec but it is clear that in Seki that rule was not observed in every case because not all were RJT army spec. And the navy operated under a different set of rules.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

8 hours ago, John C said:

Are there any "evidentiary" documents that support the notion of a specified mei cutter? I'm not doubting it, just would like to have a copy of the document.

One of the researchers, like Mal Cox or Thomas, might be able to answer that for you.  I know that Slough, in his introduction, describes the practice and the terms for it (nakirishi mei, I think? Still away from home and books).  We also know that some smith's sons cut mei for the fathers, sometimes.  So, it is a well known practice.

 

13 hours ago, vajo said:

that every sword has a unique signature from the same smith

Interesting observation, Chris.  I'd never considered the idea that the factory might have been spicing up some blades with smith names, possibly to enhance the price/sale?  Interesting idea.  Another idea, since we're discussing nakirishi mei, is that Tenshozan may have hired some rookies to work as mei cutters for thier smiths, and they simply weren't as experienced as the wartime professionals.

 

@Jcstroud - John, since we are dealing with so many unknowns, it is healthy to toss around ALL options, even opinions that are counter, pessimistic, or cynical.  It is sometimes those very challenges that can lead to new insights or push us to consider an idea we had not investigated before.  I have had cases where someone challenged my idea, and after digging, found more evidence that supported my thoughts; and other times where my thinking turned out to be wrong on the issue.  But in either case, the challenge pushed me to dig deeper and the new information brought clarity and strengthened my understanding. 

 

 

[Jcstroud]

I suppose that it is so hard to see the forest for all these trees

[Jcstroud]

For the record I do believe that it was @John Cthat made that quote which is correctin accord with army specs

3 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

  17 hours ago, vajo said:

that every sword has a unique signature from the same smith

In respect to differences of opinion it is perfectly acceptable to have a differrent point of view,but to call something fake after all the research and evidence contrary is considered a downright 

Offence and insulting.sometimes it is not what a person says it is how it said is what makes it unacceptable and rude.

 

[John C]

9 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

That was the R J T army spec but it is clear that in Seki that rule was not observed in every case

Okay. So the Processing Military Swords doc only applies to RJT. Got it.

 

8 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I know that Slough, in his introduction, describes the practice and the terms for it (nakirishi mei, I think? Still away from home and books).  We also know that some smith's sons cut mei for the fathers, sometimes.  So, it is a well known practice.

Makes more sense now when I separate procedures for RJT gendaito from standard military production. 

Thanks, all.

John C.

[Jcstroud]

Ok ,lets move on....hey @Bruce Pennington,I have a question about swords that have a unsharpened area  of roughly 11mm in front of the habaki,was that a combat feature for blade retrieval or is that a characteristic of a Takayama blade?

[Jcstroud]

On 8/11/2023 at 8:32 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

Interesting observation, Chris.  I'd never considered the idea that the factory might have been spicing up some blades with smith names, possibly to enhance the price/sale?  Interesting idea

Tenshozan tanrenjo as you know had a contract with the U.S. ARMY to buy these swords for $ 6.50each according to the documents previously mentioned in this topic as such there would be no reason to"spice them up" in order to obtain abetter price. As you also know many of these are mumei which also discredits this theory.      Respectfully

John Stroud

 

[Bruce Pennington]

That’s a good point John, I take it back!

[Stephen]

20 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

Ok ,lets move on....hey @Bruce Pennington,I have a question about swords that have a unsharpened area  of roughly 11mm in front of the habaki,was that a combat feature for blade retrieval or is that a characteristic of a Takayama blade?

No that is called ubu ba.

Or never having had another polish.

Reportedly all swords We're made that way and lost it due to polishers.

[Stephen]

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/9481-ubu-ha/?do=findComment&comment=96062

 

Actually, ubu-ba refers to the blunt, as yet unsharpened part of the blade that usually is seen from the ha-machi forward for a few inches on blades that have only seen a few polishes. With more polishes, this "virgin" edge is removed until the entire blade is sharp. Thus, a blade that exhibits ubu-ba is in nearly as made condition... 
　 
It is usually seen on shinsakuto, and often on WWII era gendaito. It is usually not seen on showa-to or machine made blades. It is rare to see on shinshinto. I have seen a few shinto blades with ubu-ba but that is very very unusual.... 
https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/9481-ubu-ha/?do=findComment&comment=96062

[Stephen]

I seen one years ago at a NYC show.

Shinshinto if I remember right.

Mark, was that on your table?

I remember everybody visiting that table so they could experience it.

[Conway S]

Has anyone come across a Takayama-to souvenir with stamped numbers? Found this one #65 (Not sure what it says after the Masa -Hiro/Nao). The other interesting feature is the anchor which is very faint. 

 

Conway 

 

[Conway S]

[Conway S]

[Jcstroud]

45 minutes ago, Conway S said:

Has anyone come across a Takayama-to souvenir with stamped numbers? Found this one #65 (Not sure what it says after the Masa -Hiro/Nao). The other interesting feature is the anchor which is very faint. 

The best person to ask is @Bruce Penningtonhe has put together a cool chart listing Souvenir swords and associated info.  He has several Masahiro's and also Masanao's listed .whether they have stamped number or not .but I am sure several have painted numbers for sure.Can find it in the NLF topic.

[Bruce Pennington]

@Conway S  Could you post a good photo of the fittings, too, please?  Looks like someone tried to file off the anchor stamp!  Strange.

 

So another duplicate painted number.  We previously recorded a #65 Toyosuke souvenir.

 

I have 2 other souvenir blades with stamped numbers:

 

Mumei, no date, number 358 written like 358; painted number unreadable

Mumei, no date, number 414, painted number 54

[Conway S]

@Bruce Pennington

 

Here are some more pics. 

 

Conway

 

[Conway S]