Nlf Gunto Discussion

[Jcstroud]

More interesting facts about Tenshozan Tanrenjo most people dont know: the grave of Masamune is within walking distance from there .Masamune #xxIII had a shop in the foothills close to Tenshozan workshop.the Hongakuji temple was also within walking distance from there. Komyo-ji.being very close to Tenshozan site. I thought it interesting that the descendant Masamune #24 has a shop also within walking distance as well. What a coincidence?

[vajo]

https://www.Japanese...katana/2010-1071.htm

[Bruce Pennington]

For future searches, Chris' link is to a Tenshozan Forging Workshop mei, August 1940 blade in civil fittings

[Bruce Pennington]

Found another Takayamato, made by Masanao, small anchor stamp, painted "29" on this Wehrmacht-awards Thread.

 

 

[Jcstroud]

40 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Found another Takayamato, made by Masanao

I have compared the kabutogane on this Masanao to the one on my Toyosuke 45 and they are identical dot for dot ,they are from the same mold.this means they used the same supplier .allother parts as well except for the one piece fuchi. Hmmmm.interesting!

Also the same 4mm circled anchor stamp with the fishhook styled barbs. Cool.

[Bruce Pennington]

That’s a great observation John! I took a look at one on page 1 of this thread, and it matches, like you say, dot for dot also.

[Bruce Pennington]

Here's a doozy!  Souvenir, # 57 (I still don't understand how we only see double-digit numbers on blades made in the thousands).  Civilian tsuba and fake company grade tassel.  Found on this Wehrmacht-awards Thread.  Note it does have the sword bag cord from the origninal bag.

[Bruce Pennington]

Also, a nice looking variant with all black ito and original brown bag.  Found on this Wehrmacht-awards thread.

[John C]

20 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I still don't understand how we only see double-digit numbers on blades made in the thousands

I'm still collecting data on that. Not sure what it means exactly, however "assembly number" doesn't seem to tell the whole story. Most folks aren't interested in the mystery, however, so when I get enough data to figure it out I'll give it a shot.

In the meantime, I have identified some patterns in the use of colors with certain smiths/shops and the use of western vs Japanese numbers.

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

Another duplicate number - 45.  Originally found on a Toyosuke blade by @Jcstroud.  This time a mumei blade found on this Wehrmacht-awards Thread.  Also on the thread is a souvenir with the seppa stamped "70" but no pics of the nakago.  I'm posting the latest Souvenir Sword Chart for those interested.

 

 

Souvenir Chart.docx

[Jcstroud]

Photo for comparison.

 

[Jcstroud]

On 7/2/2023 at 6:28 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

how we only see double-digit numbers on blades made in the thousands).  Civilian tsuba and fake company grade tassel.  Found on this Wehrmacht-awards Thread.  Note it does have the sword bag cord from the origninal bag.

It seems if you compare all the characteristics of these such as green paint in the area of the anchor stamp,the black painted numbers ,the kiri flat cut nakagos,the sword smith names such as Takeyasu,Takeyoshi,Takeyuki,Toyosuke,the sword bag tassles all seem to indicate possible sourcing from Takayama prison forge in my  humble oppinion,the same double digit numbers,and the well known afiliation with the Zenhiro Hattori sword network ,Kazuichi Hattori being in charge,and Masanao at his side hmmmm.and the number stamps are the same by appearance.hmmmm

[Jcstroud]

Perhaps this would explain why these swordsmiths are unknown or little known?  In respect to the double digit numbers they probably worked in lots of 100 perhaps using the "cubbiehole system in the manner of Gibson Banjos so the parts were not mixed up before assembly

[Jcstroud]

I believe I have an explanation for the flat cut nakago's :Takayama forge typically made the nakagos longer by aproximately 30mm making them too long for regulation koshirai,therefore supporting the surplus wartime made theory were cut to be used for the postwar souvenir contract if you compare all the commonalities: Green paint,black paint,4mm fishhook styled anchor stamp,seki mei,Masanou ,Masahiro swords same cut nakago,all stainless naval blades originally intended for Toyokawa.question is what else could they do with them postwar?possible no?thoughts?

[Kiipu]

1 hour ago, Jcstroud said:

the nakagos longer by approximately 30mm making them too long for regulation koshirai, therefore supporting the surplus wartime made theory were cut to be used for the postwar souvenir contract

 

Correct, some of the wartime made stainless steel blades had a longer than normal nakago which would require shortening.  Postwar, it appears the tangs were heated up and then bent/sheared off.

 

The navy wanted to procure 50,000 swords per month for six months starting in April 1945.  If this is the case, then stainless blade production would need to be ramped up and probably from more than one supplier.

last ditch naval rinji?

[Bruce Pennington]

Very interesting idea guys! Which could push even more of these swords into the “war time“ manufacture, and therefore surplus.

[Jcstroud]

Found a picture of a Takayamato nakago and did some calculations to estimate  the length based on known specifications using width to length ratiosand came up with 12.325 inches in length this substantiates why the nakagos were o- suriaged or shortened showing that many of the souvenir swords did come from Takayama forge and were originally intended for Toyokawa but ended up being surplus then cut for standard length koshirai to be sold to the Tokyo PX .imho

The standard koshirai were about 11 inches 

Habaki to the kabuto-gane.

[Bruce Pennington]

Second Mitsunaga blade I've recorded in a souvenir.  This one oddly has an all brown tassel.  No way to know who put it there.  Found on this Warrelics Thread.

[Jcstroud]

2 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Second Mitsunaga blade I've recorded in a souvenir.  This one oddly has an all brown tassel. 

I really like that textbook crosshatched diamond higaki yasurime obvious he was trained by Watanabe Kanenaga imo but the mei looks like its from Tenshozan Tanrenjo could I be right? I have no books only notes.

[Jcstroud]

On 7/26/2023 at 9:45 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Second Mitsunaga blade I've recorded in a souvenir.  This one oddly has an all brown tassel.  No way to know who put it there.  Found on this Warrelics

A curious thing about this one is the filing seems to have been done after the approval stamp nearly removing it.!

But the mei is.     untouched. The mei resembles that of Kanenaga's son at Tenshozan tanrenjo and probably is. Imo ?    rechecked my sources and Mitsunaga did work at Tenshozan workshop.

 

[Stephen]

5 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

curious thing about this one is the filing seems to have been done 

Looks like more of a mis strike than filed over

[vajo]

 

 

[Jcstroud]

1 hour ago, Stephen said:

Looks like more of a mis strike than filed over

Hey Stephen you finally

Came out of hibernation! Looks like a little of both .wish I could see it with a loupe.

[vajo]

All these swords are deco...

Compare the mei. Did you think a swordsmith could loose his handwriting?

 

 

They might as well have nailed Masamune in.

[Jcstroud]

9 minutes ago, vajo said:

 

 

Hey,Vajo that crosshatch yasurime is very similar to Toyosukes.

[vajo]

The mei is decoration and not from Mitsunaga. Look at the picture i made for you.

 

Left mei is that from warrelics. Right one is Kaigunto from him. No. 447

 

[Jcstroud]

13 minutes ago, vajo said:

The mei is decoration and not from Mitsunaga. Look at the picture i made for you.

Is this sword yours?Nice picture Thankyou

[vajo]

Btw i don't think that these filemarks on the souvenier swords are real filemarks by hand.

[vajo]

3 minutes ago, Jcstroud said:

Is this sword yours?

No it was sold.

[Jcstroud]

4 minutes ago, vajo said:

No it was sold.

So it was yours I take it.?