Nlf Gunto Discussion

[Jcstroud]

Funmy thing every time I think I have found the answer I realize I have only found another question !!!!!!!!🥺

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, John C said:

@Bruce Pennington do you know how to navigate the National Diet library referenced by @Ian B3HR2UH so we can pull the original document re: Capt. Wall mentioned above? 

 

John C.

I'm afraid not, John.  Thomas @Kiipu is the only guy I personally know who can do that stuff.

[Kiipu]

I transcribed the document at the link below.

Nlf Gunto Discussion

[John C]

Great! Thank you.

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

On 5/17/2021 at 2:19 PM, Kiipu said:

a souvenir manufactured for sale in the Post Exchange by Mr. Yao, Kamakura, Honshu, Japan

I'm sorry guys, I'm not following the chase very well (a bit overwhelmed with home stuff).  Is the Kamakura location different that Tenshozan and/or Japan Sword Co.?  Whomever this is - it clearly states the souvenir was "made" there!

[John C]

13 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Is the Kamakura location different that Tenshozan and/or Japan Sword Co

We know Mr. Yao was the manager of the Tenshozan Works in Kamakura, which made the blades. So I suppose the swords could be made there as well. 

I am not sure, however, the Japan Sword Company has anything to do with the PX sales. Other than the article that talks about servicemen getting USMC swords and swagger sticks made there, I can't find anything that says they supplied the PX with any swords. I probably missed something, however, so maybe someone else can chime in.

John C.

[Brian]

Just seems to me if they have a history of supplying the military, then very possibly they were making swords before and after the war. No proof, just a theory.
http://www.japansword.co.jp/military.html

[Jcstroud]

On page one of this topic you  will find a statement By Mr Bob Colman saying these swords were sold by the Japan Sword company as this was the common theory,or belief years ago based on 70 year old word of mouth testimony. Now we find new evidence that these were sold under contract by the" Japanese Naval Sword Manufacturing Company Honshu . Ok now Japan Sword Company can be quoted as saying that in 1955 they had a "dark disdain for mass produced ,machine made swords. "doubtful they would sell one. Not to mention the fact they had  arsenal stamps making them illegal in Japan at the time till present day,combined with the inability. Of Tenshozan works to "dispose of them in a different manner.

[Jcstroud]

Oh by the way JOHNC on page 3  of this topic  you will find a Zenhiro Hottori. Aka  Masahiro in souvenir fittings including cut kiri tang and all!!

Green paint ,black numbers same small circle anchor stamp Takayama to. Looks like him and Toyosuke worked in the same shop. !!!!????

 

[Bruce Pennington]

8 hours ago, John C said:

We know Mr. Yao was the manager of the Tenshozan Works in Kamakura, which made the blades. So I suppose the swords could be made there as well. 

I am not sure, however, the Japan Sword Company has anything to do with the PX sales. Other than the article that talks about servicemen getting USMC swords and swagger sticks made there, I can't find anything that says they supplied the PX with any swords. I probably missed something, however, so maybe someone else can chime in.

John C.

Oh right, he was Tenshozan.  It's been too long since I've read the documents.

 

But you lost me - the whole ruckus was because the PX ordered 8,700 souvenirs from Tenshozan, and Tenshozan had already made over 2,600 of them.  So, how could there be any confusion about whether Tenshozan made souvenirs?  Sorry, I'm confused about your confusion! Ha!

[Jcstroud]

I reserve the right to be wrong...right??? Now I am confused?@#$!%

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, Jcstroud said:

Now I am confused?

Welcome to the Club! Ha!

 

Seriously, I appreciate the work you and John C. are putting into the discussion.  Some day, new discoveries will pop in and one of us will recognize what it means to the topic.  The whole breakthrough on the souvenir came in stages over a couple of years or more.  We need all the eyes on topic we can get.

[Jcstroud]

It has been a pleasure. I really like Kiipu's posting stating ever sword needs to be respected because each one has a story to tell. That story may be a mystery,a saga ,a legacy,or the remnants of their desire to be remembered . Each deserving our time,and respect because for some it is all that is left.       

[Jcstroud]

Now to address the confusion....it is my belief that the Korean war vets that Bob Coleman bought the swords from according to them they were bought at the px in tokyo .it is probable that name Japanese Naval Sword was used by the vendors....hence the confusion  between the 2  stores.   One way to further clarify the situation is to look for a registration of this company name in the records in Japan.

[Jcstroud]

On 3/15/2023 at 10:14 PM, Kiipu said:

 

豊佐 Toyosuke's identity is currently unknown.  Almost all of his blades are in postwar souvenir fittings that were sold via the PX.  One showed up in Japan in modern iai fittings, but it is unknown if it started out as a souvenir sword or not.  Some have black painted numbers on them, the highest is 68, which you posted pictures of back in 2016.

Помогите разобраться, Post #6

現代刀・豊佐作

Thanks to kiipu I have a few more to compare

[Bruce Pennington]

Here's a real doozy!  An Affiliated Auctions lot, found HERE.

 

It appears to be a souvenir sword in a re-painted RS saya.  (there's that gold cord again!)

 

Initial examination shows the standard oversized tsuba, army kabutogane and menugi, over black fabric same'.  Mumei stainless blade with small Toyokawa stamp.  There does appear to be a good deal of wear and tear on habaki and tsuba, and obviously the tsuka.  And on closer examination, the whole thing from kabutogane to habaki was coated in varnish.  @Stephen clued me on on another sword to the varnish.  It leaves a reddish color on the metal parts.

 

 

So, I don't know if this is a very late sword or a souvenir that has been messed with, post war - added saya, varnish.

 

Thoughts?

[John C]

Looks heavily played with by grandkids or intentionally roughed up. It probably doesn't mean too much, however my souvenir is also numbered 66 (see below) and looks decidedly different.

John C.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Post war molestation.

[Jcstroud]

Looks like it was underwater and swelled up then left in the sun to dry.

 

[Kiipu]

A bit of a technical question for the metal workers amongst us.  I note the bottom of the tang on most of the souvenir swords shows evidence of being heated up.  They then seem to have sheared/bent off the bottom portion of the tang.  Why was this done?  Were the tangs too long?

 

Has this practice been seen on wartime production?  Does anyone have a side-by-side picture of a souvenir tang next to a wartime stainless kaiguntō 海軍刀 tang?

[John C]

1 hour ago, Kiipu said:

Were the tangs too long?

I can say the bottom of mine has signs of being sheared or snipped (as opposed to being saw cut), so I suspect that would be easier when heated. In terms of the length, the tsuka on mine is the exact same length as my mantetsu (9 5/8 from the tsuba), which is a bit longer than the type 95 and a bit shorter than the rinji. So my guess would be the cut may have something to do with saving time during manufacturing? My initial thoughts were that they were cut to distinguish them from actual war-time blades, however there are some rounded/signed blades found in souvenir mounts so I doubt this is the case.

John C.

@Bruce Pennington do you have both souvenir and kai gunto mounted blades?

[Bruce Pennington]

I will have to search to see if there are any signed nakago with heat-color & broken off jiri, but I doubt it.  Here are my 2.  A souvenir compared to a signed, Large seki & Toyokawa stamped kaigunto.

[John C]

The souvenir sure does look longer...and almost like they are cut from a long billet then shaped.

John C.

[Kiipu]

How do the measurements compare to the drawing below?

Tang length: 206 mm.

Tang hole distance from top & bottom notches: 60 mm.

Width at notches: 28.5 mm.

Nakago mune width at top notch: 8 mm.

[Jcstroud]

Hey Kiipu took more photos of Toyosuke #45 for comparison I cant seem to get the resolution that I want without the filesize being to big.

[Jcstroud]

12 hours ago, Kiipu said:

How do the measurements compare to the drawing below?

Tang length: 206 mm.

Tang hole distance from top & bottom notches: 60 mm.

Width at notches: 28.5 mm.

Nakago mune width at top notch: 8 mm.

[Jcstroud]

Modified roman numerals found:

Illl   /   =45    thought you might find it interesting.

[Jcstroud]

more  interesting markings

[Bruce Pennington]

14 hours ago, Kiipu said:

measurements

[Bruce Pennington]

19 minutes ago, Jcstroud said:

Illl  /       =45 

Thanks John!  Consider it logged in.