Nlf Gunto Discussion

[Jcstroud]

I actually very impressed with the sharpness after 70 years without a polish.can still shave with it but i dont recommend it!

[Bruce Pennington]

John,

Thanks for the addition to the files!  The story of it coming back from Korea matches Chris Bowen's account of Korean war vets bringing these back.  I wonder if they were cycling through Tokyo on the way back from the war, or if the Army PX had an operation in Korea?

[Jcstroud]

Can google 8th army px in tokyo at the 

K. Hattori building .known as px corner 

Ca. 1945-1952

[Jcstroud]

Hey Bruce have also found there were px in pusan korea as well with large. Inventories

[Jcstroud]

Ps.those inventories were shipped from Japan  

[Jcstroud]

Hey  Bruce : do you suppose that the olive drab paint on the nakagos combined with appearance of the small

Toyokawa arsenal stamps could be considered to be intended for contract fulfillment? Or the other possibility of us troops using the paint to hide the arsenal stamps?

[Jcstroud]

Does anyone know who was Toyosuke since it seems he has made quite a number of this  type  of what could be called Shin-Kaigunto  Nlf,  and  or  Army Navy surplus souvenir swords?  Ok I admit I love to ask at times unanswerable questions.but we all want to know more.

[Bruce Pennington]

18 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

Toyosuke

John,

He's not listed in Sesko's book or Slough, but there were approx 400 smiths working in Japan during the war, and we often come up short finding these guys.  It is possible he was new toward the end of the war and was working for the Tenshozan shop and the Toyokawa Navy Arsenal when the war ended.  

 

19 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

do you suppose that the olive drab paint on the nakagos combined with appearance of the small

Toyokawa arsenal stamps could be considered to be intended for contract fulfillment? Or the other possibility of us troops using the paint to hide the arsenal stamps?

No, the painted numbers were assembly numbers to keep the fitted parts together during the process of making the sword.

 

18 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

could be called Shin-Kaigunto  Nlf,  and  or  Army Navy surplus souvenir

Souvenir is all they were, and all it should be called.  They weren't Army or Navy, or even a combination as none of them were military equipment.  It is why they were able to ship them after War Trophies were banned in 1946.  They were not a military weapon and could truthfully be called "Souvenir" on the shipping documents.

[Jcstroud]

Thank you for your response.to clarify complements on your excellent work on those pdf files on the mysterios naval landing forces sword. No matter what they call them they are well made super sharp and purpose built with pride.weapons they are.period.call them what they want but I am not selling mine.   I hate symantics......arrrgh 😁

[Kiipu]

On 3/14/2023 at 11:40 AM, Jcstroud said:

Does anyone know who was Toyosuke since it seems he has made quite a number of this type

 

豊佐 Toyosuke's identity is currently unknown.  Almost all of his blades are in postwar souvenir fittings that were sold via the PX.  One showed up in Japan in modern iai fittings, but it is unknown if it started out as a souvenir sword or not.  Some have black painted numbers on them, the highest is 68, which you posted pictures of back in 2016.

Помогите разобраться, Post #6

現代刀・豊佐作

[Jcstroud]

It seems they remain somewhat a mystery to this day.how can one know for sure when some of the blades are considered made before the end of the war in accordance to the Japanese naval sword pdf?by Mr Cox.

[Bruce Pennington]

Like you say, they are good blades.  Some of them signed and well finished, while some are mumei and crudely finished nakago.  That's why I feel some were from un-used surplus at the end of the war, and the rest were made after the war to meet the PX contract.  I feel strongly that the majority of the fittings were made post-war.  In-hand, they are much, much lighter than WWII kaigunto, and quite new.  I have seen 1 or 2 show up with fittings that appear to have been made during the war, so some of the fittings could have come from end-of-the-war surplus.

[Jcstroud]

Thank you for your response you are indeed a gentleman and a scholar.

[Jcstroud]

We may have found the missing link! Apon examining what I call Toyosuke #45  I have found under the naval style fuchi on the wooden part what appears to be in pencil a ho symbol .in trying to figure this whole thing out I asked myself what does the 1st kokura armory

Sourced koshirai ,Toyokawa, and Tanshozan works have in common? 1 thing Mr. H.Hattori. who had a sword shop where?   Answer: PX corner the H. H.HATTORI BUILDING That sold swords before and after the war.

[Jcstroud]

I know that my previous post may       be  conjecture.it is based on the unlikely availability of toyokawa sourced koshirai. Yeh I know I am arookie compared to you guys ,but like you guys I find it acool obsession.

[BANGBANGSAN]

3 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

1 thing Mr. H.Hattori. who had a sword shop where?   Answer: PX corner the H. H.HATTORI BUILDING That sold swords before and after the war.

The K. Hattori building, known as the Ginza Wako department store, was founded in 1881 by Kintaro Hattori (服部金太郎) as a watch and jewelry shop called K. Hattori (now Seiko Group Corporation) in Ginza. In 1947, the retail division split off as Wako Co., Ltd. (株式会社和光, Kabushiki-gaisha Wakō).

This K.Hattori building is NOT connected with the swordsmith 服部正廣 (Hattori Masahiro).

[Bruce Pennington]

6 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

Sourced koshirai ,Toyokawa, and Tanshozan works have in common? 1 thing Mr. H.Hattori. who had a sword shop where?   Answer: PX corner the H. H.HATTORI BUILDING That sold swords before and after the war.

Interesting observation, John!  Keep up the good work.

[Baka Gaijin]

Also Japan Sword Co in Minato Ku  was and still is down from what is now the Tokyo Masonic Grand Lodge, at 4-1-3 Shibakoen, which was the former Hisamatsu Daimyo residence in the Edo period.

 

Back in 1945, the previous building was commandeered from the Kaigun and used as U.S. Officers quarters and a club.

 

By 1946, when the ban on US troops having captured Militaria  came in, Japan Sword Co under Inami Hakusui started producing the Black Saya Gunto style souvenir swords and they were just down the road.

 

Somewhere on NMB is an article with cuttings from Pacific Stars and Stripes describing this.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

6 hours ago, Baka Gaijin said:

By 1946, when the ban on US troops having captured Militaria  came in, Japan Sword Co under Inami Hakusui started producing the Black Saya Gunto style souvenir swords and they were just down the road.

 

Somewhere on NMB is an article with cuttings from Pacific Stars and Stripes describing this.

We need to work on this some more.  The article you might be referencing is on page 2 of this thread :

 

Posted by @jeep44, but it's dated 1955.  Japan was allowed to start making real sword after, what, 1950?  Doug Price - if you are reading this, can we get the full article?  I'd like to know if they are referring to the souvenir or are they talking about the shop making real swords again.

 

We know from a couple sources that soldiers were, in fact, buying the souvenir from the Japanese Sword Shop, in addition to the Army PX.  If the shop were making them, along with Tenshozan, it might explain the blades we see without the Toyokawa anchor stamp.  

 

When Doug posted that originally, I missed the discussion that the shop was again making swords.  I had assumed they were getting the souvenirs wholesale from Tenshozan and selling them retail to G.I.s.  But after Malcolm's post, I now see what you are saying - the shop may have been making them, too.  There is no significant variation in the fittings, so if both shops were making the souvenir, they must have, both, been getting the fittings from the same source (which could have been Japanese Sword shop?).

 

Need more info. Like to see if the '55 article specifies.

[Bruce Pennington]

Further thoughts:

After re-reading the Army documents, Tenshozan made 8, 747 souvenir swords and 1,200 "daggers" (dirks?).  1946-'55 is 10 years, that means they made 875 swords per year.  That's pretty much the max capacity for a sword factory during the war.  I wonder if they contracted some of that work out to other shops, like the Japanese Sword Shop.  If not, and the 2 were both making them, that's a heck of a lot of souvenirs made and sold.

 

I had not previously paid much attention to the "daggers" fact.  Not following naval dirks, I have no knowledge of who had been making them during the war.  Like swords, I suppose there were multiple makers?  We have a photo of the Japanese Sword Shop making them in 1965 (might have been Suya Shoten), so I assumed they were making them during the war.  But I wonder, now, if Tenshozan was making dirks during the war too.

 

Edit:  I had my head on backwards, there.  The wartime production was easily 500-800 per MONTH per shop.  For example, the Type 95 production was around 15,000 per month, total, and SMR was putting out 6,000 per year.  Don't have the figures on memory for officer production.

[Jcstroud]

According to the documents of the 8th army all the "contracted souvenir"  swords were completed by March 1947. That is what I call production.

[Jcstroud]

According to associated press reporter Hal Boyle stated that: the first day of the tokyo px  17000 servicemen spent nearly 100,000 dollars on Japanese goods in 5 hours ! And had to close 3 hours early because nothing was left!

[Brian]

I'd have spent that much on sushi alone

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, Jcstroud said:

According to the documents of the 8th army all the "contracted souvenir"  swords were completed by March 1947. That is what I call production.

Good catch John!  I've added a correction on my post above.

[jeep44]

I'll have to dig that magazine out again, but in the article, the sword shop was making a USMC NCO sword, with a traditionally-forged blade.

[Bruce Pennington]

6 minutes ago, jeep44 said:

I'll have to dig that magazine out again, but in the article, the sword shop was making a USMC NCO sword, with a traditionally-forged blade.

Thanks!  Yeah, from the snippet of article in the previous post, it sounded like they were making current US military swords for the G.I.s.  Still, we know they were selling the souvenir, so it would help if we found some sort of mention of it.

[jeep44]

I just found that magazine, and photographed each page (6 pages) . The article claims no swords were made for almost 10 years after the war, but it also mentions that the shop had been open before that, and US Servicemen were bringing "souvenir" blades to the shop for repair. A member of the USMC Tokyo Honor Guard brought an NCO sword to the shop, and asked if they could make one like it. Apparently, the whole Honor Guard ended up with NCO swords made in the Japanese traditional manner, along with swagger sticks, which the shop also made for them. Finding one of these Japan Sword Company NCO swords now would be a very interesting find, I think.  I don't think I can post six pages in the photos here, so perhaps I should email the photos to you, Bruce?

[Bruce Pennington]

Yes thanks: bwp1977ATgmailDOTcom

[jeep44]

Here's the Tokyo PX in 1954:

[Jcstroud]

Found these markings  writen in pencil on the wood end under the naval fuchi.and have no idea what signify. Were too faint to photograph. Anybody?