Help identifying school and value...30" nagasa, 4" kissaki!

[Leatherdog]

Bought this one at a gun show from a military antiques dealer...got a good deal, but the question is "how good?"

 

Any help placing the school and value range would be much appreciated. I don't know much about it, but the dimensions are impressive, and it would be gorgeous in full polish.

 

Nagasa: 30.0in

Sori: 2.3cm

Motokasane: 8mm

Sakikasane: 5mm

Motohaba: 3.3cm

Sakihaba: 2.8cm

Kissaki: 11.4cm

[Leatherdog]

More pics

[Leatherdog]

This probably should have been posted under "Nihonto" instead of the general forum...sorry.

[Stephen]

ill move it over for you thats one beaut of a sword, love that Kissaki and nice mounts.

[DSweet]

As far as "value" goes. Well it has been said on here before... A sword is worth what someone will pay for it. Value, to you of course, is EZer to determine IMO.

 

Looks like a really nice sword. I love the O-kissaki, and i can see nie, and what might be kinsuji in your photos. It looks as if this sword would show some nice activity upon close inspection, and if it were mine i would probably put myself on someone's list to get it into full polish.

 

I have not studied enough hands on to even take a guess at time period on this. Well i could guess, but it would be just that, a guess.

 

-Donovan

[slavia631]

Very very nice. May I ask what you paid for it? Every once in a while some wonderful deals can be had at gun shows. When/Where was the show?

[Leatherdog]

$1400 (!) at the big show in Tulsa, OK last October. I remember going as a kid, maybe ten years ago and seeing tons of swords (way before I had the budget to buy any...) The last time I was there, I saw maybe 50-75 in the whole event (4000 tables), including gunto.

 

I, of course, bought the two bargains.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Let me the first to raise a yellow flag, from the images I'm not so convinced this sword isn't meant to fool at this point.

[Leatherdog]

What looks suspect to you?

[Stephen]

Franco

 

what are you talking about, kind hard to make a statement like that then not back it up. Please do tell

[nagamaki - Franco]

Not trying to be difficult, but I'm also going to turn the question around and ask what is it that can be seen in this sword that doesn't make one stop and say, hmm?

 

Let me put it this way, I just do not see anything that points to where I can say, ah, yes, this is right, and this is correct, and therefore...... . Not the steel, not the hamon, not the shape, not the polish, not the nakago, not the tsuka. Hopefully I'm way off, to which I'll be more than glad to eat crow. So, please convince me otherwise.

[AZPhil]

Very Nice Devildog. What is that under the wrap of the tsuka? It doesn't look like Same(Ray skin).

 

But it does look good!

Semper Fi

[Leatherdog]

Franco,

 

Not trying to react too defensively, but what in the world is suspect? We're not trying to argue that this is some Koto masterpiece...shoot, it's not even signed. In fact, no one has even made a statement as to what it is...so what doesn't "look right"? I can assure you, it is Japanese. It is probably shinshinto. It is almost certainly no older than that. Beyond it being a long blade, probably from the 1800s, no other "claims" have yet been made. Please, if you see something that doesn't look "right", be more detailed in what you see that makes you feel the way you do. I'm all ears.

 

AZPhil,

 

I'm still guessing at what is under the tsuka-ito. It looks to be lacquer with something in it...but I don't know what. All of the little "inserts" are roughly circular, and an off-white. I haven't seen one like this before, but then again I'm not widely traveled.

 

S/F

[Stephen]

Good eye AZ

maybe some more pix Tsuba F/K and some of the mystery skin under the wrap, blade construction looks fine to me he's leaning toward shinshinto I'm gendaito looks like that from the hamon pix. Civilian mounts? Very interesting what one does and does not see.

[Leatherdog]

F/K & Tsuba pics. The photo of the menuki I already posted shows pretty much everything there is to see about the material under the ito.

 

The tsuba doesn't give the impression of being very old, but the F/K and menuki look like they are. Interestingly, the saya has about a 4in "boot" where the toe of a leather combat cover is attached. Don't know why the rest of the cover was removed and this was left, but it's there. Seems to pretty conclusively show that the blade was carried during the war, whichi seems odd considering its size. Must have been a pretty tall guy!

[nagamaki - Franco]

hey, first impression of the steel is that this is not true forged steel, based on jigane. It has that bar steel appearance, smooth but not muji, dark-lifeless. It could be the polish, granted. Second, look at the lines forming the kissaki, something is just not right. A poor polish, again, maybe. Thirdly, the hamon, of what can be seen, is too shadowy, no nioi, nor visible nie, lacks control, too random. Fourth, the nakago simply looks like it is trying to be something its not, rust, file marks, shape, just doesn't look right, natural. The wrap on the tsuka is highly suspect, those menuki simply look fake.

 

Normally, when you first look at a sword it gives an immediate first impression, this is a "??? tradition sword", from "??? time period", etc., and this sword doesn't seem to do that. Kantei is the critical component when considering any sword.

 

Hope that I'm completely wrong, just watch, now that I've said something it will turn out to be a Ju-to.

 

One more thing, this makes me recall a number of years ago, when I ran into a "showato" made quite long to look like a Shinshinto piece and it was signed (gimei) by a shinshinto smith. There was no doubt however, that it was not a true nihonto. It was picked up and brought back by a missionary working in Japan immediately after the war.

[Stephen]

Franco

 

not sure why you cant see any actvity ...so i cropped and lighted it up...looks like nice work to me. May have to do the same to the fittings pix are dark

[Leatherdog]

Franco,

 

I can only hope it's a juyo waiting to be papered! :D

 

 

Thanks for being more specific...

 

The darkness of the steel and hamon is an effect of my photography. Tons of nie and readily apparent hada with the blade in hand. The condition of the polish is not so good...someone used something coarse to remove some areas of "spider rust" on the blade. Lots of uchiko later, the activities are becoming visible, but the sword really needs a fresh polish. The tsuka-ito is old, just clean. As for the nakago, it is well shaped, and the nakago-jiri is carefully finished. There is red rust on top of an older, darker patina. I think the sword was exposed to excessive humidity at one point, which would explain the fresh rust on the nakago and the rusted areas on the blade.

 

The menuki look fine, but I'm no expert.

 

I appreciate the input!

[John A Stuart]

Hi, Looks like a gendaito to me and traditionally forged. Needs some TLC. Can not see enough of the blades characteristics to really get a grip on the attribution. John

[Mark]

looks like a real sword to me. I would aggree it is Shinshinto at the oldest, possibly even early gendai. it is not possible to be accurate without seeing the sword but i would estimate it would bring 2-2500 at a sword show ( i sold a couple of 29" signed swords in Tampa for $3-4000). seems like a good deal, not sure i would polish it, might better to sell it and put the profit in something else (for shinshinto swords i would want them signed and dated to spend the money to polish and keep them).....my opinion

[zuiho]

Hello,

 

From my own experience, I would call this a late shinshinto or gendai imitation of a

koto blade. The yasuri mei and red rust look a little too fresh to be much older than

the showa era.The smith, it seems to me was not entirely successful . The kissaki

tapers too narrowly out to the point in comparison to classic blades with o-kissaki.

The curvature is a little extreme .

That tsuba is definitely showa. I had one very much like it on a katana marketed by

one of the sword companies of the era. The rest of the fittings probably are, too.

It looks like the tsuka has a same substitute. That might imply a late-war vintage

when shortages made real same rather scarce.

Just my opinion based on what I have seen in the past.

 

William G.

[sencho]

Hello,

 

The smith, it seems to me was not entirely successful . The kissaki

tapers too narrowly out to the point in comparison to classic blades with o-kissaki.

The curvature is a little extreme .

 

 

William G.

 

 

.... but would this be because of the Smith, or the Polisher?

 

Cheers!

[Guest reinhard]

One mekugi-ana (in the right place for an ubu-nakago,BTW), Iri-yama-gata jiri, hardly any patina on the "former" shinogi-line on the nakago, flaky rust falling off in pieces. A stiff, awkward and uninspired gunome pattern. What other hints do you need? Even poor for a ShinShinTo or a GendaiTo this could be accepted with a flawless and signed nakago but instead it is just a pretender.

Interesting enough: It seems with o-kissaki (and big sizes in general) you convince the simple gaijin most easily. Reminds me of certain other analogies.

 

reinhard

[Brian]

I think people are pretty brave to make some of these calls based on the little we can see.

My advice would be to get it looked at in hand at one of the sword shows.

I don't see a boring uninspired gunome there, I see quite a wild hamon with maybe even some tobiyaki, and a polish that is not showing off anything that is there. I also see indications of plenty of hataraki and hada. To me, shinshin-to and would be very nice in polish. But as I said, there are not enough pics and the polish isn't good enough to make out any of this for sure.

With a 30" nagasa and that kissaki, I would be surprised if it turned out to be simply a gendai-to made for the war effort. Not impossible of course, but wouldn't be typical. Nakago patina is never certain..as removal of a tight tsuka can wear the high points..and climate can advance surface rust. So can artificial methods. If it was bought at a gunshow and not a sword show, I would expect it to have been with the guy for many years as a WW2 bring-back, with less chance of faking. But you never know nowdays.

Take it to a show or sword study group, and prove one half of us here wrong

 

Brian

[Guest reinhard]

Telling from the shape of the blade it is not older than ShinShinTo. This can be told, among many other features, by the very narrow shinogi-ji and the flat niku. The nakago does not look like o-suriage but ubu (in the meaning of not being shortened; it was altered nevertheless). In fact, it has many features of swords made during the very end of the Bakumatsu or slightly later. Any smith working during the last 150 years or so would have signed his work. It just doesn't make sense to forge a sword and then leave it unsigned; and naturally grown patina does not fall off like that, revealing clean steel.

As for the hataraki: They do not proove quality by their sheer existence. Their quality and the control over them CAN make hataraki a quality-feature, but western eyes are easily detracted from real quality by spectacular effects visible at first sight. This goes for many other features of Nihon-To.

I agree with Brian, that the pics do not reveal enough to come to a final conclusion, but they definitely reveal enough to say, that this sword is, in all probability, not what it pretends to be.

 

Even considering the poor state of polish, the gunome-outline IS stiff and awkward (despite of hataraki) and points towards a later date of manufacture. Unfortunately the nakago pretends to be something else.

 

reinhard

[Leatherdog]

I have read that during some of the political turmoil during the shinshinto times, that smiths sometimes feared that blades they signed would show up in the hands of the "losing team" and they would face consequences from the those who came to power...whether that's accurate or not, I don't know. I have, however limited my experience might be, seen several swords made within "the last 150 years" that were of at least decent quality, and were ubu and mumei.

 

Also, as I've already stated, (more than once, I believe) the red rust in the pictures is on top of a darker, smoother patina. It doesn't "flake off to reveal clean steel." Again, wouldn't one expect to see "fresh" rust on the nakago of a sword exposed to a humid environment (attic, maybe...) for some period over the last 60 years? The blade, after all, has minor damage from rust as well.

 

To me, it seems rather obvious that this is no attempt to "fake" a koto blade, and I've never asserted that it was older than shinshinto... There seems to be no real effort to "pretend" to be anything other than what it is - and that is a shinshinto piece (at least loosely) styled after a koto one. My original question was aimed at determining the school that produced this COPY of an earlier sword - Not wondering if it was 600 years old.

 

I hope that clears up a thing or two...

[Guest reinhard]

"I have read that during some of the political turmoil during the shinshinto times, that smiths sometimes feared that blades they signed would show up in the hands of the "losing team" and they would face consequences from the those who came to power."

 

Where do you have this informations from and what do you mean by "turmoil during the shinshinto times"? Anyway, this is nonsense. Do you really think samurai and swordsmiths anticipated a possible failure and took precautions? I recommend serious sources about samurai-culture.

 

"Again, wouldn't one expect to see "fresh" rust on the nakago of a sword exposed to a humid environment (attic, maybe...)"

 

No. I've seen swords lying neglected for a longer time and their nakago look better and more authentic than this one.

 

"To me, it seems rather obvious that this is no attempt to "fake" a koto blade, and I've never asserted that it was older than shinshinto..."

To make my point clear: The ShinShinTo-movement was dedicated to rediscover the qualities of old KoTo qualities. The Toko signed and dated their works with reasonable pride. Unfortunately some of their blades were misused later by crooked individuals and sold as the originals they are not. Your sword looks exactly like that. It may have some qualities, but with an altered nakago like this, it is without much value and in its state of polish, it doesn't make sense to speculate.

 

reinhard

[Leatherdog]

Where do you have this informations from and what do you mean by "turmoil during the shinshinto times"? Anyway, this is nonsense. Do you really think samurai and swordsmiths anticipated a possible failure and took precautions? I recommend serious sources about samurai-culture.

 

I hardly think Darcy Brockbank posts "nonsense" on his website. I was able to find where I'd originally read this theory, and copied it below. It is in reference to a shinshinto daisho. The original can be seen on his site.

 

"The katana is unsigned, as is the wakizashi. This is something that one encounters every now and then in the Shinshinto period. It is theorized that with growing unrest towards the end of the Edo period that some smiths did not sign their work if it was going to the "other side" from where they stood. That is, should the owner be captured or killed, the work could not easily be traced back to them and so by not signing they could avoid potential punishment.

 

I do not know how much weight this theory holds, I do know that mumei Shinshinto pieces are not uncommon and so there must be some reason behind it."

 

I said before that I wasn't sure how accurate this idea was, but it is quite logical.

 

Do you really think samurai and swordsmiths anticipated a possible failure and took precautions? I recommend serious sources about samurai-culture.

 

Are you implying that the samurai and swordsmiths were stupid? I'm quite sure that, though dedicated and aggressive, the samurai and smiths calculated risks. I've probably read more about samurai culture than you think...but this is off topic and quite ridiculous.

 

No. I've seen swords lying neglected for a longer time and their nakago look better and more authentic than this one.

 

Yes, well I've seen antique pistols that laid "neglected" in a drawer for decades that looked brand new...I've also seen some that were put away in wet holsters...they looked a bit rougher. It's foolish to say that because one sword recieved no attention and happened to be stored in fairer conditions, that all neglected swords should look a certain way.

 

We can argue back and forth all day, and it won't help me learn anything about my blade. I'm trying not to be overly defensive, but I detect a slightly hostile tone, and I'm not sure why. I'm open to the possibilities, as I bought the sword relatively cheap, and like it as a display piece if nothing else. I just want to learn as much as possible about it from those with more knowledge and experience - not to have it picked apart when it doesn't seem to warrant it. If my blade is of "average quality", fine. If it is really good, better...but I know enough to state with conviction that it is not junk.

 

What makes you believe the nakago was altered at all? I can't see any evidence of re-shaping or a signature being removed. With one mekugi-ana, I don't think it has been shortened, as that would put the original length of the nakago at over 8.5" ...

[Brian]

I do not want to lock this topic

Please keep it civil. I think we all respect the right of others to have an opinion, and I think we are all mature enough to give ours without becomming aggressive or argumentative.

Everyone is entitled to a bad temper day, the point is can we get over it and get back to being civil and polite please. I expect better from you guys whom I hold in high regard.

 

Brian

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Reinhard,

 

To make my point clear: The ShinShinTo-movement was dedicated to rediscover the qualities of old KoTo qualities. The Toko signed and dated their works with reasonable pride. Unfortunately some of their blades were misused later by crooked individuals and sold as the originals they are not

 

Mumei shinshinto blade are not so scarce. Even, some were awarded hozon by the NBTHK.

 

example:

 

London Meeting – 5th December 2007

 

Reported by A V Norman

 

 

 

 

 

A very good shinshinto but mumei katana in the Bizen style with choji-gunome midare hamon in nioi-deki. This had NBTHK Hozon attribution to Koyama Munetoshi, in shira-saya.