One Of Those "mystery" Swords

[jeep44]

I was just over at Wehrmacht-Awards, and read a thread about these swords. Bob Coleman described this sword to a "T", and made some very interesting statements about it. The sword in question had some subtle differences from mine-Army-style menuki, and no anchor stamp, while mine has Naval menuki, and the stamp. Mine has the "snapped-off" tang, and a black lacquer saya, as described. Here's some pics of my recently acquired sword:

[jeep44]

 A couple more photos:

[Dave R]

 Take a good look at what's in the back of the truck.

[Shamsy]

I'm not really following I'm afraid. Is there a question here? There's a standard Type 97 Kai-Gunto in the pictures, late war is suggested by the plain tsuba and canvas in place of same. Might just be missing the copper ray seppa though. They're less common than 98 but not rare by any stretch. The Japanese navy lost a lot of ships and consequently a lot of swords. From the nakago this one has a stainless steel blade. The stainless ones have the stamp and painted kanji which I think I can see remnants of in photos. It should have a cord sarute but that's missing.

 

Looks like a nice sword though. I like the stainless ones, they're very easy to damage the tip though because it's so soft, so be careful!

[PNSSHOGUN]

No mystery here, it's a Kai Gunto!

[jeep44]

Here is the thread I referenced at Wehrmacht-Awards:    http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=907917

[PNSSHOGUN]

Interesting read, post war frankensteins it seems. Still using wartime manufactured blades though, good candidates for Tameshi.

 

I feel a little less regret I passed on one for $750 now.

[jeep44]

I don't know-were they wartime-assembled swords that were in storage when the war ended, and then acquired by this "Japan Sword Co.", or assembled post-war? They weren't assembled haphazardly-they are very consistent in their specifications, and made with care and skill. Who knows? Anyway, I don't mind having an example of one of these.

[Stephen]

Yea no mystery, low rank officers carry, whos budget was low too, really dont think Frankenstein, toward end of war  material like same* not affordable. 

 

Edit 

Doug posted as i was, if military collector all versions would be.

Edited April 22, 2017 by Stephen

[PNSSHOGUN]

Not so sure really, reminds me of Mitchells Mausers a little....

[Brian]

Except as Dave shows...some of them confiscated in that jeep at the end of the war. At least appears to be them. So not post war made.

[Shamsy]

It was first mentioned way back in F&G first edition that these single hanger naval gunto were suspected post war put together. It's interesting to read that Bob has at least anecdotal evidence to confirm that long held theory. The photos are great Dave! I can only make out the two hanger Naval swords with certainty though so I don't think they provide any new insight. The single hangers depicted are of an entirely different nature based on those tsuka kashira.

 

NOW! The NCO is much more interesting! Yes there are genuine example with original black saya, there are probable wartime repainted ones and there are post war repaints. We can check depending how interested you are.

 

I can be more precise on identification of the 95 to. Your example is a Seki made sword, so if there are any stamping on the fuchi under the paint it'll show the Seki manufacturer stamp, Nagoya inspection then Kokura arsenal stamps. It looks to be good condition. These are less common than Suya and Iijima but not rare. A nice pickup. I really should get onto some of these other forums. I'm missing NCOs everywhere.

 

Oh! Almost forgot. You wore gloves when handling. Hats off to you sir.

 

Actually I'm not finished here. Those other swords in the photo with the plain oval tsuka-kashira look eerily familiar. I'm going to have to hit my notes here. Might have solved a real mystery after all.

[Bruce Pennington]

I attempted to chat with the Japanese Sword Co via Facebook's Messenger.  Their first response was that they don't do that kind of thing.  I replied that maybe it was done after the war to avoid post-war laws about selling war weapons, and the mix of navy and army parts might have qualified the gunto as a souvenir/art sword rather than an official weapon.  Their reply got seriously lost in translation, but they seem to have been saying: "Yes, this is something you should share with your collector friends."

 

Dave, maybe it's my eyes, but I can't find any of the NLF style gunto in those photos.  Do you see one in there?

 

If Bob Coleman is right (and I respect him highly as someone who lived and trained in Japan), then it seriously changes the meaning of the NLF style gunto.  Although, clearly the blades and koshirae parts are still legit Japanese items make for war, they would not have been something actually used during the war. 

 

I'm still puzzled, though, by someone's post a while back, that he had a relative who had served in the war, and post-war Japan, and had seen a warehouse full of this style gunto.  This would support the idea that they were being produced this way late in the war.  If this is correct, then maybe the Japanese Sword Co. got ahold of this supply and truly were selling them after the war.  This wouldn't change the somewhat increased value (in my mind), since they were being intentionally made this way in the war effort.

 

Either way, still Japanese WWII items.

[Dave R]

 

 

Dave, maybe it's my eyes, but I can't find any of the NLF style gunto in those photos.  Do you see one in there?

 

 

 

   There is such a mess of swords in the photo' that I think it all but impossible to sort them out in detail or for certain. But what I am confident about is that they are genuine wartime Gunto in that picture, and many of them would be declared fake or post war assemblages if they appeared on a dealers table.

  So for me the point is that we still need to do a lot of research on the subject, and keep an open mind, while remembering that fakes and post war souvenirs abound.

 

 These swords for instance are seriously weird, and before I saw this photo I would have called them out as cheap nasty fakes.

[PNSSHOGUN]

If you can get one of these cheap for exactly what it is then I see no issue, but we need to make sure that collectors are aware the mounts are most likely of post war assembly.

[jeep44]

Nothing that I have read firmly establishes WHEN these were assembled-just that they were sold as souvenirs postwar.

[Bruce Pennington]

I've asked a good friend, who is a metallurgist, if he would examine the army fittings that are bright gold to see if they were painted, as Bob Coleman felt, or gold-gilded.  I feel that if they are gilded, then it implies these parts were being worked during the war.  I don't know how easy or difficult the gilding process is, but it's not something I picture a post-war sword company doing.

 

I'll update when I get word, or maybe he'll jump in the conversation.

[Dave R]

 Gilding is a subject in itself. Mounts can be "Foiled" which is gold leaf or foil applied to the base metal, often used on old  seppa and habaki. "Fire gilded" aka "Mercury amalgam gilded" when a Gold and Mercury amalgam is applied to the base metal, and the Mercury driven off by heat. Electroplated, which is the common method used now and since the late 19th century.

 It would be interesting to know which method was used during the War.  Mercury gilding produces the best finish, but the process produces toxic fumes and is very rare now. In fact against the Law in some countries unless special measures are used. (Apologies if I am stating the obvious here, or reiterating common knowledge.)

 I would say that anything Fire/Mercury-Gilded was pre and  Wartime produced, Electroplate not so sure as it is a common Industrial process. I have had stuff Electroplated with Gold not so long ago.

[Bruce Pennington]

Ok!  The "mystery" develops - more evidence to examine!

 

My friend says the army parts are 100% gilded.

 

The nakago looks brand new and has kanji.  If anyone can translate, please help!

 

UPDATED:

New look of the nakago is because the blade is stainless steel! Ha!  Should have thought of that!

 

Kanji reads: "resident of Nara."  (thanks to Guy at Wehrmacht-awards forum)

[Stephen]

https://www.aoijapan.com/katana-biccyu-kuni-aoe-yu-yasutsugu-saku

[Shamsy]

Hi all, just wanted to share this. Looks like it is at least the scabbard of those mystery swords in the photo. It is missing two rings, but otherwise has the correct band and an unusual drag.

 

The sword itself I don't think so, as the pomel and menuki are wrong.

 

It's not an NCO as claimed or I'd already own it, but thought I'd drop it here for everyone to see.

 

http://m.ebay.com/itm/WWII-Japanese-NCO-ARMY-T95-SWORD-/232329627066?hash=item3617ecc5ba%3Ag%3AY6sAAOSwBt5ZEkg9&_trkparms=pageci%253A061ebd6b-3521-11e7-a2ef-74dbd180b908%257Cparentrq%253Aefffa80d15b0ab6408a588fffffffd82%257Ciid%253A1

[Bruce Pennington]

https://www.aoijapan.com/katana-biccyu-kuni-aoe-yu-yasutsugu-saku

Stephen, I don't understand the meaning of this link.

[Bruce Pennington]

Hi all, just wanted to share this. Looks like it is at least the scabbard of those mystery swords in the photo. It is missing two rings, but otherwise has the correct band and an unusual drag.

The sword itself I don't think so, as the pomel and menuki are wrong.

It's not an NCO as claimed or I'd already own it, but thought I'd drop it here for everyone to see.

http://m.ebay.com/itm/WWII-Japanese-NCO-ARMY-T95-SWORD-/232329627066?hash=item3617ecc5ba%3Ag%3AY6sAAOSwBt5ZEkg9&_trkparms=pageci%3A061ebd6b-3521-11e7-a2ef-74dbd180b908%7Cparentrq%3Aefffa80d15b0ab6408a588fffffffd82%7Ciid%3A1

Steve, the seller clearly doesn't know what he is talking about!

 

My impression of this one is of a civilian blade pressed into service during the war. The very loose fit at the fuchi makes it appear to be missing several seppa, too.

[Shamsy]

I agree with the assessment of missing seppa, which could make this a standard kai-gunto with odd menuki and just in poor condition? Seller has no idea! Would be good to see the nakago.

 

The saya is the only part I find really interesting. In the 1st photo Dave posted you can see standard kai-gunto but also those ones I've never seen before, with brass bands around the saya and around the top of the tsuka. I believe, given the same placement of the single remaining ring that this scabbard is from one of those swords. Sadly the photo does not show a clear drag on those mystery swords so it's only an educated guess. The hanging ring and band are missing, as is another slimmer rring, which would have confirmed or denied it.

[Shamsy]

There is such a mess of swords in the photo' that I think it all but impossible to sort them out in detail or for certain. But what I am confident about is that they are genuine wartime Gunto in that picture, and many of them would be declared fake or post war assemblages if they appeared on a dealers table.

So for me the point is that we still need to do a lot of research on the subject, and keep an open mind, while remembering that fakes and post war souvenirs abound.

 

These swords for instance are seriously weird, and before I saw this photo I would have called them out as cheap nasty fakes.

These ones I'm referring to (wasn't sure if I was clear). I believe the saya on eBay probably comes from one of these.

[Shamsy]

Wait a moment... Carefully compare http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/22508-minamoto-sadayukis-wild-hada/?do=findComment&comment=227983

to the one on eBay. Appears to even have the same covering on the saya.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Wait a moment... Carefully compare http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/22508-minamoto-sadayukis-wild-hada/?do=findComment&comment=227983

to the one on eBay. Appears to even have the same covering.

Looks like the same sort of urushi covered canvas as the handle doesn't it.

 

I'm thinking either low weight combat saya version or late war material shortage. The Sadayuki is mid 44 so not sure about material shortages considering the high quality of the other fittings and sword in general. The naval sword falls in with late war material shortages though. Very intriguing.

[Dave R]

 The Sadayuki is mid 44 so not sure about material shortages considering the high quality of the other fittings and sword in general. The naval sword falls in with late war material shortages though. Very intriguing.

 

  The shortages started to bite from before the Pacific War. Summed up neatly in this US propaganda piece.