Real Nihonto Collectors

[BIG]

A while ago after the Hemingway expierience The old man and the beer, thought how many "real" Nihonto collectors do we have in our homecountries? And what makes anyone a true collector?

Asked collectors, dealers, NBTHK/ NTHK members, swordclub members, forummates, NMB members one question: How many real collectors do we have here in germany, the answers reached from 55 to

250.

Often asked what is a real collector?

Have to own one Nihonto, 10 books, is over three years in the hobby, forum member, NBTHK/NTHK member, private sword club member and ..

What do you think how many real collectors are in your countries?

 

For germany I think we have 250 collectors...

[BIG]

Sorry Tosogu too for sure..

 

Best Regards

[paulb]

Peter,

I think this opens a very troubling can of worms. Over many years here and in other places there have been so many arguments about what constitutes a "real Collector" and none of those debates have generated anything positive or worthwhile.

Some of the more outlandish definitions (at least to me)

1. If you are a true collector you only collect long swords and not wkazashi.

2. Only collectors of koto are "true collectors"

3. Only those who study in Japan can be considered true collectors.

 

Based on nothing other than my own prejudices can I suggest that anyone who is prepared to give up a proportion of their income, to invest time and effort in finding pieces researching and studying them and who takes pleasure in preserving them for future enjoyment of others is a "True collector". Whether their collection comprises 3 gunto or 35 tokubetsu Juyo koto long swords does not define what they are. It is the mind set which they employ in pursuit of their interest.

We witness here on an almost daily basis dedicated people sharing their passion for all aspects of the subject. We don't all agree, nor do we all enjoy or understand others enjoyment of certain items but this adds to the interest and certainly doesn't exclude people from being defined as true collectors.

[Jean]

Perhaps 60 in France

[Pete Klein]

I would prefer the term, 'Nihontophile' which is a lover of Nihonto and it's universe.  Anyone with a bank account can purchase a sword or a tsuba but the Nihontophile makes the study of the field or specific areas his or her avocation.  This of course changes the dynamics of the niche.  Just my take on the question.

[seattle1]

Hello:

 Interesting question Peter!  It is however an empirical question and I think the question has to be restricted to distinguish between persons who have collections, and those who are active collectors. I wouldn't dare to guess a number , but if we were to restrict it to blade collectors who are active, and if we had the co-operation of the leading clubs such as the JSS/US, NBTHK/AB, the California and similar regional groups, and perhaps dealer's lists to provide numbers, and then delete for double counting, there would be a starting number. Then the issue would by what factor to multiply that number?  The range would be at least 2 - 10 I would guess.

 Just "thinking" out loud.

 Arnold F.

[CSM101]

250 collectors for Germany? That´s really optimistic. I think less than 150 is more accurate.

 

 

Uwe G.

[BIG]

Yep 150 is a possible count..

 

Best Regards

[Brian]

Probably less than 10 in SA..maybe even less than 8.

[tom]

Peter,

thats not true. I think that we have over 1000 here in Germany, maby more. I know more as 150 here in Germany. The most collectors here collect still, they dont talk about or have contact to other collectors.Many of these read here the Post in these Message Board and others, but they are no member here.And thats a lot of longtime collectors.Other collector collect Swords as an investment.

 

Tom

[John A Stuart]

There are acquirers and there are collectors. How do you define which? John 

[Dave R]

 The definition by book collection is outdated. A lot of serious information is now online, supported by discussion. There is also the library factor, I live 3 miles away from one of the best Nihonto libraries in the World.

[Katsujinken]

Here in New York we've got regular Token Kai attendees who don't own a single blade but can read signatures on the fly and those that bring in Juyo blades but need a reference book at their side for kantei.

 

As long as folks are interested in preserving and furthering the study of nihonto and the surrounding culture, they're a collector in my book. For me the label is less about physical objects than the cultivation of the spirit through study and camaraderie. :-)

[Okiiimo]

Perhaps "collector" is a misnomer. Wouldn't "student" of Nihonto be appropriate?

[SAS]

If there are any besides myself here, I do not know of them. I have heard that there is one young man whose grandfather in Hawaii bequeathed a sword to him, but don't know how reliable the info is.

[Tengu1957]

For what it's worth....to me a true collector is someone who is driven by their love for what ever facet of collecting they enjoy and it's more about knowledge and sharing their enthusiasm with others. They might not own anything or they may have a world class collection. I am grateful for everyone more knowledgeable who helped me learn about something I picked up when I started when they could have easily taken advantage of me. I really admire those senior collectors who were generous in that way who would reach out to those who at the time might not be considered a true collector by definition but by their example might return the favor to someone just as green later in life.

Gary G

[Okiiimo]

In my home state, there's a barroom definition of what defines a "real Alaskan" to which one cannot be a "real Alaskan" unless one has urinated into the Yukon River, wrestled a grizzly and had relations with a native Alaskan. Both the label and its condition for achieving it are absurd.

 

The term collector, acquirer and hoarder all essentially mean the same thing. It describes a person that concentrates objects. The conditions the OP posited to meet the class of person of discussion; number of years, quantity of books and affiliation with groups that suggest scholarship is the key trait and the population nihonto students is really the topic being presented.

[Stephen]

As opposed to not so real collector? 

 

The title just leaves a taste of elitist mentality, oh so you have only two swords? you not a nihonto collector.

 

Pass  

[Jean]

I'll say "Amateur"

[Stephen]

OK

[Ken-Hawaii]

The point of this question being?? ?? I used to be president of our local sword club, but would consider maybe only a half-dozen of our 40+ members as being "collectors." If all a member wanted was to "own" a "real, honest-to-goodness Samurai sword," then that certainly doesn't meet my criteria as a collector, & maybe not even Jean's "amateur." If Peter wants to sit down & have a conversation about Nihonto, then how many "real collectors" are there in Germany, or anywhere else?

 

Ken

 

[Dr Fox]

Dont regard myself a 'collector'. That to me means, an ability to gather specific items, up to a unspecified quantity.

Rather I am a 'custodian' of art works, having a true regard for their history, and a mission to ensure that no harm occurs to them in my care.

Disposable income, dictates my ability as to what I am able to study, that I assure you will never amount to a collection.

[Bugyotsuji]

In my bookcase I have about 15 books plus stacks of journals on Nihonto, and I have been a participating member of the Token of the UK and both the local and national NBTHKs in Japan for several years. People probably recognize me here too. As to blades I have at present 8 assorted spears from koto onwards and one signed swordsmith's (Kusari) Jingama, in addition two koto wakizashi and one shinshinto tanto. The only modern blade I have is a faithful traditionally-made recreation of a Nagamaki. So I guess by Peter's criteria above I get a pass.

 

Observing the seriousness and dedication of others though, objective self-evaluation (not humility) tells me that I am not yet a true collector, because my understanding is not deep or natural. To be honest I do not feel comfortable in a way that I am in other fields.

 

I do like learning about J blades, and I can read most signatures, but much of the time I feel like a beginner on the edge of the circle, if not an outright imposter.

 

The Japanese sometimes refer to a clumsy doctor as a 'Yabu-isha', or bamboo-grove doctor. The explanation I once heard is that inside a bamboo grove a doctor will see flashes of the sky ahead, ie the prognosis. A true/real doctor will see clear unobstructed blue sky ahead. I do get flashes of inspiration! Maybe I am a 'Yabu-collector' then. (?)

[Brian]

In my home state, there's a barroom definition of what defines a "real Alaskan" to which one cannot be a "real Alaskan" unless one has urinated into the Yukon River, wrestled a grizzly and had relations with a native Alaskan.

Somewhere in there, there is a joke waiting, about a drunk guy who stands up after wrestling with a native Alaskan, and then says "Right!.....now where's that bear!"

Sorry...couldn't resist.

[IanB]

All,  An interesting topic that begs a few comments. The standard Cambridge dictionary defines a collector as 'one who collects objects because they are valuable, interesting or beautiful', three attributes I think we would agree apply to nihonto. Collectors of toshogu on the other hand are exactly that, as they do not collect nihonto as such but components of them. I would include in the same category those who collect only blades since again they are not nihonto but simply a component of a sword, albeit the most important element. In my opinion, despite the fact that nihonto blades are designed to be removable from their mounts, I am saddened that so many collectors see no need to keep the koshirae together with the blade when they have the latter polished. Time and again on NMB I see a blade described as a 'katana' or 'tanto' when they are not, they are just blades, no more and no less. As for whether a 'collector' researches his blades, again we come down to semantics. In the vast majority of cases it is not research but simply identification by comparison with research already carried out by someone else and described or illustrated in books. It is true that this information could be collated and perhaps interpreted in a new way, but very few collectors do. So what it boils down to is back to the dictionary definition - a 'nihonto collector' is someone who accumulates swords because they find them beautiful, interesting or valuable in some other way - in short they like them and want to own them.

Ian Bottomley

[Dr Fox]

Ian, my own opinion on blade/sword, has a resonance with your comments.

In an article I am writing describing the recent full dressing of a wakizashi in koshirae.

I had a small para on this, I had wondered how it would sound to a reader.

Think I could stick my neck out now.

 

"I am also hampered by my own stubborn acceptance that nihonto in a  shirasaya is a blade, but in a koshirae it is a sword, i.e., ready for its intended purpose".

[GARY WORTHAM]

I too, believe, even after 20+ years of being a student/collector of the " Japanese sword ", that the blade is an intended part of the package with it's koshirae to make it be called a " sword ". The blade in shirasaya is, of course, just the blade.

 

That being said as the obvious, what one collects is as unique as their visual to brain interpretation, of what they like and want to own; and willing to spend.

 

My choice from the start was the entire sword package, which, every year I increase with quality. The better the choice and cost, the better the blade quality polish, and even papers; etc., has pointed me in the right direction for the future; with naturally, a matching set of it's koshirae.

 

Yes, I do has a few that are in shirasaya, with their matching koshirae  ; but intact. They just came that was, were great swords to behold, and it works for me.

 

What I found in my early days of purchases,  were the " Frankenstein " swords, where the great fittings were stripped from the blade, and replaced with a poor vision of it's former self. These ill fitted fittings, by amateur or uncaring sword folks, replacements, were at it's best, in the early days, still able to contain, yet a quality fitting, here or there; so I have yet to turn them loose as a sword. These are a great reminder of what was once something, but was reduced by the tampering of others.

[peterd]

I consider myself a collector because i collect, (keep buying said items). A connoisseur, maybe or maybe not?

[Jussi Ekholm]

Depending on the criteria I would say we have about 0-30 in Finland. I guess around 10 ish would be a good number of active collectors in here.

[Bugyotsuji]

Ian's post above has exposed another interesting divergence of custom among sword collectors east and west.

 

We often say that whereas westerners seem to prefer swords to have paperwork, the Japanese claim they set less value on such paperwork, preferring to believe what they see in the blade itself. (The proof is in the pudding? The goodness of a particular French wine should be self-evident?)

 

Having just spent the winter in the UK I was able to observe an interest in sword furnishings as an integral part of a sword's identity, in a way that I have not observed in Japan. Nothing is black and white, however, and there are surely exceptions on both sides. At sword meetings in Japan most of the swords are in shirasaya. The 'temporary' set of furnishings, if in existence, always seems to be an adjunct, a curiosity, perhaps as an afterthought, set aside or in a corner. So many reasons for the Japanese attitude pop up into my head that I cannot type fast enough to record them. Is the shirasaya a vital form of insurance cover in a very humid land? Do fine fittings indicate the regard that someone else once held for this blade? Artistic or historical value are important, but is provenance hard(er) to prove? Images of a beautiful woman's body and gorgeous clothes that she may have worn over the years flit across my mind, her body being more of a reliable constant than the clothes... .