Which Tsuba Is $5K And Which Is $200?

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Steve

 

ok, ya got me :-) I was being deliberately provocative with regard to the lumpy bits. I'll try and clarify what i was getting at.

 

Firstly I should say we can't compare these two tsuba with each other because they represent different aesthetic considerations.

 

While the design is similar I think only one is actually a Kamayama work. That one exhibits the characteristic 'lumpy bits' we expect to find in such works. So far so good.

Really exceptional Kanayama pieces are superb and command very high prices, as you suggest $10K and upwards.

The question for me then was how highly I would rate this, less than exceptional, example.

 

Now I apprecitate that for some the tekkotsu in the mimi along with the tsuba's other aesthetic features is enough but to my eyes I found it uninspiring. And I say that holding in my minds-eye a number of far superior Kanayama tsuba I've enjoyed over the years.

I'm thinking specifically of a number of superb examples that passed through the galleries of Patrick Syz in London from the Caldwell collection. One of these sold for close to $20K, the others ranged from $7K to $15K and that was 20 years ago. I can't afford 20 or even 10 thousand dollars on a tsuba . On the other hand two and a half is doable (if my wife lets me). But I couldn't ever be persuaded that the example we're discussing is worth that price. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that while I enjoy the full aesthetic experience a great Kanayama piece has to offer and I am completely in agreement with the huge prices the very finest pieces demand I simply don't get much at all in terms of aesthetic experience from lesser and cheaper versions. My problem is I have champaigne taste but only beer money.

 

Turning to the first tsuba I don't think it is reasonable to evaluate it in the same way as one would a Kanayama piece because I'm not all that convinced it is one. Having said that I viewed it in it's own context. The surface is dry and dusty with areas of light rust. This doesn't concern me overmuch as I have an idea of what might lie benieth that 'dirt'. Like a painting restorer I think I can see more beneath the grime and neglected patina layer. This tsuba was very carefully crafted and seems to me to possess a subtle 'correctness' about it. The inner lines of the ryo-hitsu in particular caught my eye as being very sensitively shaped. And here I did compare that feature with the Kanayama tsuba's hitsu and personally found the Kanayama rendering to be less inspired. My feeling is that in their own ways, and addmittedly with a little TLC (which the Kanayama may already have recieved), the first tsuba represents far better value for money and is a better example of what it actually is.

 

As you say, we're basing all of this on pretty poor images but I think the discussion, even if we agree that we're speaking only in the abstract, is of use in exploring our ideas on the broader subject anyway.

 

As for the flash patination that is indistinguishable from a genuine 400 yo. deep and rich patina....you don't think I'm going to make that  goose available commercially do you?

[Brian]

That could have gone so many ways...and I am really encouraged by both Steve's points made and Ford's reply. Thank you chaps...for showing how these debates can be done. Let's not change that impression now

[BenVK]

Many thanks guys, I'm learning a lot here and it's much appreciated!

[Jussi Ekholm]

It is really nice to read the explanations and what more experienced eyes are seeing.

 

I think the difficult part for many of us beginners would be first figuring out that the 2nd one is a Kanayama tsuba. I understand the situation Ben is decribing in the opening post. It is sometimes for a beginner really hard to tell the origin of the item especially in a situation like this when the design is common.

 

Out of curiosity again what attribution the first one has, or is it just a mumei tsuba without papers/identification?

 

 

[Pete Klein]

Jussi - I have the same problem when looking at swords.  As I do not study them but instead focus on fittings I cannot kantei swords much at all whereas with fittings I am in general reasonably adept.  When I first saw this post I knew #2 was Kanayama immediately but that is because I've spent a lot of time studying the Owari area of tsuba (including Nobuie).  Trust me, I get stumped all the time and will always be a student.  It's just where one's interests lie. 

[Steve Waszak]

Hi Ford,

 

Agree with pretty much all of what you say here except, perhaps, the bit concerning the hitsu-ana (a relatively minor point ).  Your thoughts about the first tsuba being a better example of its type than the Kanayama is of its type (Kanayama) I wouldn't necessarily disagree with, either, though outside of the first one's being called a "tokei" tsuba, I'm not sure what type it is.    I certainly concur that there are much better Kanayama guards than this one, and the price this piece carries ($2,500) is about the upper limit that it could/should command, in my view.  It's a good Kanayama, but "good" is about all. 

 

Oh, and I need to add that if I left the impression that I thought both of these were Kanayama works, apologies:  the first is not, of course, a Kanayama tsuba, and I never meant to suggest that I thought it was.  And you're quite right, too, in saying that the two are not really comparable in that they each pursue different aesthetic goals (the shared motif is not really a point that should/needs to be compared).  But if I were a bushi in need of a new guard for my koshirae, and was enamored with the "tokei" look, I'd definitely be choosing the Kanayama over the other, IF cost were not an obstacle.

 

I can certainly accept the argument that the first tsuba represents a better value for the money, especially if a bit of TLC were applied, than the Kanayama would (for its type).  I will hold that the Kanayama is the stronger tsuba if we are simply asking which tsuba I'd rather own, but when the question is presented as you do (which is the better buy for the money?), I don't see any discord in our thoughts...

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Ford Hallam]

Cheers Steve, I think we're singing from the same songsheet after all :-) Then again the few rambling discussions we've had would already suggest that and one day sake and good food might facilitate that a bit more.

[Steve Waszak]

Hi Ford,

 

Sounds good, Ford.  I look forward to that day very much...    God knows what might come out of our mouths once the sake is flowing! 

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Curran]

Well concluded Steve and Ford.

Thanks gentlemen.

 

Kanayama tsuba are a slippery slope anyway, with prices varying as much as with tea bowls.

[BenVK]

Out of curiosity again what attribution the first one has, or is it just a mumei tsuba without papers/identification?

 

Hi Jussi,

 

Here's the first one, it's been re-listed.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KANAYAMA-Openwork-TSUBA-of-Katana-sword-EDO-2-8-2-8-0-2-90g-/352022758616?hash=item51f63104d8:g:zwgAAOSwsW9Y3NNE

[Pete Klein]

http://page18.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/w174439465