Which Tsuba Is $5K And Which Is $200?

[BenVK]

Tsuba prices completely baffle me..

 

For example, the asking price for one of these is $5,400, the other just $200.

 

Just for kicks, can you tell which and why? (Without searching the net for the answer!)

[Ford Hallam]

Well, imo, the numbers are a red herring. Vendors will ask whatever they think they can get, these prices don't actually signify any real meaning in terms of value. Something is worth what you are prepared to pay for it.

 

$5K is quite a bit more than I would consider reasonable for either of these pieces. But the one one the left is the finer piece in my estimation. The second tsuba is probably 'worth' $200. Not that I would pay that nor buy it if it were $100 even. It simply doesn't interest me. But that's my personal evaluation, each to their own, of course.

[Fuuten]

To be honest, i don't know, and i see Ford just posted so that should be that.

Asking price is just that, selling price is also just that. On topic i don't really like either of the tsuba, and couldn't give you a right answer.

[dominnimod]

A game like this could have been fun, but the prices aren't realistic,heck, the seller of the one on the right is selling modern cheap souvenirs swords

for 200-500.

Leaving that aside, both of this sellers ask way too much for the things they sell,

But,the one on the right would be more expensive, work is not as complex as the one on the left but it has hozon papers.

[vajo]

For my eyes the right looks better because the iron is much nicer. I have no idea about the pricing.

I personally didn't like the design of both. But it is a question of taste.

[Kurikata]

Fashion, trend, has also an impact on the value for such Tsuba. I remember, end of last century   , it was very fashionable to have a Tokei style tsuba in a collection (Owari school or not) and prices might go extremely high.

 

You can find some at any price:

 

https://www.aoijapan.net/tsuba-mumei-unsigned-tokei-tsuba/

 

https://www.aoijapan.com/tsuba-mumei-the-clock/

 

Depends you taste and if the tsuba is appealing to you

[BenVK]

I was hoping we could leave out who the sellers are and whether they are papered or not.

 

The aim of the thread was to try and help me understand why two such similar tsuba could be so far apart in price.

I find it very puzzling but I don't know much about tsuba yet so thought maybe I was missing something very obvious.

 

To clarify.

 

No.1 has the $200 starting bid.

No.2 has the $5400 buy it now.

 

I personally don't like them either, they are not to my taste but did think No.1 the better piece.

[Stephen]

There are a ton of tsuba on ebay with outrageous prices, the pix lifted from web sites. They ask most of the time double what its selling for.

 

So without whos selling what makes the little game a moot point. Not a valid sale.

[BenVK]

Understood,  apologies for wasting everyone's time then.

[Bazza]

No, no, far from a waste of time IMHO.  As a tsuba babe-in-the-woods I too was wondering.  Got it wrong as I thought #1 was the better, but #2 has what appears to be tekkotsu and so might have been the better.  Prices??  Neither appeal to me and I couldn't be persuaded to buy either at any price...

 

BaZZa.

[Stephen]

No BaZZ you got it right read Ford sans first post

[Jussi Ekholm]

I'm no tsuba guy but out of those two I would pick number 1, to my untrained eye it just looks better aesthetically. Unfortunately I don't like Tokei tsuba at all, it is just not a style I like.

 

Out of curiosity what attibution the number 2 has?

[Brian]

Not wasting anyone's time at all. Discussions like this are good...only way to learn. Or learn if the Emperor is not wearing any clothes

[Pete Klein]

This is the actual seller page:  http://wakeidou.com/publics/index/258/

 

I knew I had seen it before.  At least this way you can make a better judgement on the tsuba/right.

 

PS:  Stephen is correct about the Ebay seller.  I found his listings page and there is another item there from a legitimate  dealer in Japan which is listed for several thousand dollars above it's actual cost.  Funny thing is that it's actually been sold so he's not too big into his own research. 

[Jussi Ekholm]

So a Kanayama attribution. (not that it tells me much about pricing)

 

It is important to carefully check eBay sellers and do the research. As Pete pointed out the original listing there is huge difference in price between that and the eBay sale.

[Shogun8]

Agree with most that I prefer #1 aesthetically, regardless of price - it just seems finer and better proportioned.

[BenVK]

This is the actual seller page:  http://wakeidou.com/publics/index/258/

 

I knew I had seen it before.  At least this way you can make a better judgement on the tsuba/right.

 

PS:  Stephen is correct about the Ebay seller.  I found his listings page and there is another item there from a legitimate  dealer in Japan which is listed for several thousand dollars above it's actual cost.  Funny thing is that it's actually been sold so he's not too big into his own research. 

 

So, the ebay seller of Tsuba No.2 is either the same guy running wakeidou.com or just ripping off photos of items from that website and trying to auction them? In other words, a scam?

 

Here's the ebay listing.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/262916947671?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

10% off now, lucky us!!

[Ford Hallam]

the cheeky bastard is using an image of mine too! Those are my work gnarled fingers holding the blank of the Katsuhira tiger tsuba.

 

Someone is gonna get hurt now....

[BenVK]

You're joking! that's really taking the piss!

 

If you need any help shutting this prick down, just let me know. Not sure how to do it yet but quite willing to complain to ebay if you want.

 

In the WWII collecter market, there's a guy called Pavel Nowak who's well known for doing the same thing. He steals photos from legitimate sellers and websites and has ripped of countless collectors. He's more sneaky though because he offers the items for about 70% of the true asking price.

[Brian]

Search the forum for Pavel Nowak. we have threads and warnings about him going back to 2006
Actually...a large syndicate. But anyways...I don't think these guys are fraudsters...just taking a chance reselling listed stuff for a huge markup.

[Stephen]

countless sites used this is from a seller in AZ been wanting them for years 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tsuba-Japanese-Samurai-Katana-Koshirae-guard-bamboo-and-sparrow-design-Antique-/262878615380?hash=item3d34c95754:g:p3YAAOSwCU1YuMR~

 

he was the one i reported for my Dragon in mist tsuba that i found on Yahoo and won, i messaged him on how can you sell if i own it, im blocked in contacting him now

[BenVK]

Search the forum for Pavel Nowak. we have threads and warnings about him going back to 2006

Actually...a large syndicate. But anyways...I don't think these guys are fraudsters...just taking a chance reselling listed stuff for a huge markup.

 

I had no idea he was involved with "sword fraud" as well Brian!

The last offering I saw from him was an SS visor cap that we all knew he didn't own!

[BenVK]

Steep learning curve for me this week regarding tsuba!

 

Wasn't pleased about being screwed out of this one either. Thought I'd chosen a nice one.

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/22131-is-this-a-higo-school-tsuba/

[Curran]

So, the ebay seller of Tsuba No.2 is either the same guy running wakeidou.com or just ripping off photos of items from that website and trying to auction them? In other words, a scam?

 

It isn't the family behind Wakeidou.com

Nice polite people who don't speak much English and have their shy but competent daughter-n-law do the translating.

She's pretty, but married and husband and father-in-law both have a lot of nice swords at arms reach to discourage flirting.

 

As if it mattered much, I definitely prefer #2.

The 400 year old piece in excellent condition very representative of the time and place, regardless of how you feel about the religious motif.

[Going from memory, I think the best english read on that is Fred Geyer's(?) KTK article on the theme.]

[Steve Waszak]

An interesting thread.  Personally, I see #2 as far superior to #1.  #2---a Momoyama Kanayama guard---is peppered with strong tekkotsu all over the rim (a highly desirable feature for those who like the Tea aesthetic), and, at 6mm thick, is a substantial tsuba, even at its otherwise smaller dimensions.  It also appears to have a much better patina, though of course, such judgments always come with a caveat when they are made via photos, only.  #1 to me appears stiff, dry, lacking the vibrancy that #2 has.  I'm not a fan of the "tokei" motif, personally, but setting that aside, I can see why #2 would be valued at several times what #1 would be.  Wakeidou's price (280,000 yen) actually makes sense to me ($5,000+ would not, however). 

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Pete Klein]

Yup - my sentiments also, Steven.  There is absolutely a learning curve with the old steel guards for certain.

[BenVK]

#1 to me appears stiff, dry, lacking the vibrancy that #2 has.

 

Many thanks for your contribution but could you explain what you mean by your statement?

How does one apply a definition of "stiff, dry and lacking vibrancy" to a tsuba?

[Ford Hallam]

As someone who actually works with metal I'm perhaps less beguiled by lumpy bits in iron, lumps that no-one as yet has even as yet been able to explain or accurately decribe.

 

OTOH I believe that anyone can pay whatever amount of money for whatever it is that resonates with them as being of value.

 

This is less a matter of aesthetic value and more about market psychology....imo.

 

A brief read about Dutch still life's, tulip mania, feet binding in old China and the comparative cost of glass window panes today and 200 years ago might provide a more lively (enlightened perhaps) consideration of old rust iron....

[Ford Hallam]

and as far as No: 2 goes....It looks over cleaned and somewhat over fininished/polished to my eyes.

Apart from some very obvious lumpiness in the rim I see very little/to no  texture or quality in the iron.

The hitsu look awkward and stiff and the overall feeling I get is of blandness.

 

As to the origonal/legitimate sellers asking price...$2500, I wouldn't pay that, but I expect a lot more from a  potential Kanayama piece that's going to cost me serious cash.

 

and when it comes to the vibrancy or quality of patina I like to think i can recognise where 30 minutes care can work wonders.

[Steve Waszak]

A few thoughts to convey in response...

 

First, as to what I mean by "stiff, dry, and lacking in vibrancy," what I'm trying to say is that, sometimes, we encounter pieces that lack subtlety in the fluidity of their lines (here I do not only mean the relatively two-dimensional lines of the top-down view of the tsuba's "face," but also the niku moving from seppa-dai to mimi, and "traveling" across the plate).  The first tsuba you present appears to me to be lacking in this fluidity:  there is little to no sensuousness to the form.  It is rigid.  Of course, this is in the eye of the beholder, so one's mileage may vary...    The tsuba also presents (in this single photo) as lacking depth to any patina it may have; it lacks the "wetness" so prized among many old-iron tsuba connoisseurs.  Again, I qualify this statement due to the fact that we are viewing these pieces through photos only, and in the case of the first one, a single rather poor image.  It may be that, in hand, it does indeed have a deeper, richer patina than it appears to here.  When a tsuba lacks both the "life" of a wet patina and is also lacking in fluidity/sensuousness of the forms that comprise it, then to me, it lacks vibrancy therefore.  Tsuba #1 is thus dull, insipid, DOA...

 

Ford,

 

Oh come now...    You know as well as I do that actually working with metal has nothing at all to do with whether one is "beguiled" by "lumpy bits in iron."  Our response to such "bits" is based on aesthetic sensibilities, and is not related to experience at the bench.  Further, whether there may be any certainty in how tekkotsu "may be explained or described" again has zero to do with appreciating their effect.  And your separation of aesthetic value and market psychology is something of a false dichotomy:  if one (or the market) values tekkotsu aesthetically, and enough sympathize with such a valuation, then the market will respond.  Perhaps I'm not understanding what you mean by the distinction you're making exactly...

 

As for your comment about tulips and the like, if your point is simply that tastes change, and that there is no accounting for taste (and the [market] values/valuations that accompany shifts in taste), well...yeah.  There is no fixed and objective, intrinsic superiority of one form or another, whether in tsuba art or any other.  What one considers superior to another depends on argument, not on fact.  So I'm not quite sure what you meant to accomplish by including this comment.

 

I find your thoughts as concerns tsuba #2 quite intriguing.  As we all know, one cannot accurately assess surface presentation of tsuba via photos, so the statement you make about its state of preservation is curious and perplexing.  Then, your qualifier---"apart from some obvious lumpiness in the rim"---in assessing the quality of the iron is frankly odd:  you select out THE dominant aesthetic property of Kanayama guards and then evaluate the rest.  I guess I might say that, apart from the engine, transmission, suspension, and chassis design, there isn't much special about ferraris.  Sheesh.  Further, by comparison, the metal of tsuba #1 appears (in the photo) to be utterly lacking in character, unless one finds rust patches to be "character building."  And there is nothing at all "awkward and stiff" about the hitsu in tsuba #2---in fact, their placement so close to the edge of the plate creates a liveliness that, again, tsuba #1 wholly lacks.  The hitsu-ana placement in tsuba #2 presents as carefully considered; by contrast, the hitsu-ana in tsuba #1 come across as rote, by-the-book, mindless. 

 

The price of this tsuba is fine.  $2,500 for a good tsuba is nothing.  Juyo-level Kanayama are $10K-plus.  This piece isn't juyo, obviously, nor even TBH; but it is a good Momoyama Period Kanayama guard.  There are not a lot of these around.  If anyone thinks that a superb-quality Kanayama tsuba can be had for $2,500, he had better reconsider what counts as superb.  For maybe the fifth time, I'll say that without seeing the tsuba in hand, I would reserve any sort of final judgment.  But it is a superior rendering of the motif to that seen in tsuba #1, at least in the features I would value. 

 

Finally, oh I wish it were so that such "flash patination" could work such wonders.  I have yet to see anything approaching a convincing patina in quick-fix (and even the vast [VAST] majority of slow-fix) cases.  When one has seen deep, old patinas on fine iron, there is nothing that can compare.  I am not suggesting here that tsuba #2 has such a patina; I rather doubt it, frankly (though again, I have only photos to look at). 

 

In any event, and in the end, it really boils down mostly to taste and what we find appealing.  I personally loathe Edo Kinko as hopelessly trite, mawkish, saccharine (most of it), but that says everything about me, and virtually nothing about the pieces themselves.  I think all we can do is try to assess how well an aimed-for aesthetic expression achieves those aims vis-a-vis others that also target that expression.  And to my eye, tsuba #2 easily out-does tsuba #1, and it is a good, though not great, example of Kanayama sensibilities. 

 

Cheers,

 

Steve