Tanobe Sayagaki Translation - Pls Help Me Finish!

[Okiiimo]

Dear compatriots,

 

I humbly ask your assistance in reviewing my translation attempt on a Tanobe Sensei sayagaki and assisting me to finish. I’ve spent many hours attempting to identify the characters on lines 2 and 3. I think I’ve gotten about ¾ of the way there but stuck. I’ve been using translated examples of other Tanobe sayagaki and used those examples to match the script on my sayagaki. (Darcy, if you’re reading this, thank you for providing that information on your site, it’s been immensely helpful!) This matching method is tedious but it does works to limited degree. Because the descriptive language and nihonto terminology tend to carry over between Tanobe sayagaki parts tend to fall into place and makes sense - generally. I find I’m having great difficulty trying to translate the string of translated Japanese into a meaningful English sentences. I know I've got a longs ways to go, but so far, I believe I'm starting to recognize characters and being able to pick them out!

 

If there is a kind soul or souls to help me, I ask for assistance in identifying the Tanobe script could not identify (denoted by (?)) and help me with my English translation so the sentence makes sense to an english speaker. I'm not requesting a time intensive course, but a word hint or suggestion would be very helpful as I think I'm missing the correct context that would provide the correct definition. A photo of the sayagaki in question is attached.

 

In return, I will provide a donation $30 to NMB in the name of those individuals that have provided assistance (I hope this is OK to make such an offer, if not, please let me know and I’ll withdraw the offer.). Thank you!

 

My translation effort thus far [unrecognized characters denoted by (?)]:

 

1)          出羽国月山

Dewa kuni Gassan

 

2)          但薙刀直し無銘也 - 同派ノ特色ナル綾杉肌ノ鍛錬ヲ (?) (?) (?) 焼刃 (?) (?) ビル (?) (?)

Tadashi naginata naoshi mumei nari – Dôha no tokushoku naru ayasugi hada no o (?) (?) (?) yaki jiba (?) (?) obiru (?) (?)

 

Although, naginata naoshi unsigned, (there is) agreement (that the) characteristic to be of use (as) ayasugi hada forging (?) (?) (?) tempered jihada and hamon (?) (?) (obiru?) (?) (?).

 

3)          有 之而典型的也 - 蓋シ代年八南北朝末期乃至室町 (?) 期 (?)

Kore ari shika tenkei teki nari – kedashi? nendai hachi Nanbukucho maki naishi Muromachi (?) ki (?)

Approximately thus type like. (kedashi?) period 8 Nanbukucho end to Muromachi (?) (ki?) (?)

[DirkO]

Hi Allan, for $30, I think Markus Sesko will translate the lot for you professionally :-) It's his standard fee for sayagaki (you get romaji and english and the kanji)

[Okiiimo]

I guess I could use Mr Sesko's services. I'd thought I'd try this forum to build rapport and hopefully learn from others here as I struggle in my learning. The offer I made is a personal experiment that I thought would provide a token incentive and benefit the forum. Benefitting the forum would benefit everyone that uses it right?

[Stephen]

I agree Allan, and its not like your asking for the entire translation you have put in some fair work IMHO, be patient, members will help those who have tried.  

[Toryu2020]

Jidai wa (ハ) Nanbokucho sueki mata Muromachi shoki

The period is late Nanbokucho or early Muromachi. Ha in this case is read as wa...

-t

[Toryu2020]

鍛錬 Tanren equals forging

-t

[Okiiimo]

Thomas

 

Thank you for your assistance. It fills in a few gaps!

 

Here's where I'm at on the translation so far... I've copied the sayagaki photo into publisher and added the translation and text characters. The unidentified characters have question marks. I really would appreciate assistance on those!

[SteveM]

You've done well, Allan,

 

Here are the blanks and some corrections. I leave the English translation to you for now, but if you get stuck I will jump in. If you are handy with a search engine you should be able to pick out the missing bits. Note that this is written in kind of a classic style that doesn't always lend itself to handy English translations. I've left "koreari" in the first appearance, but I think this should just be interpreted as "arimasu" in modern Japanese. 

 

出羽国月山

Dewa-no-kuni Gassan

 

但し薙刀直し無名也

Tadashi naginata-naoshi Mumei nari

 

同派の特色なる綾杉肌の鍛錬を顕示し焼刃共に鄙ぶる風情有之

Dōha no tokushoku naru "ayasugi hada" no tanren wo kanjishi,

yakiba tomoni hinaburu fuzei koreari (arimasu)

 

而典型的也

Shikōshite tenkeiteki nari

 

蓋し年代は南北朝末期乃至室町初期歟

Kedashi nendai ha Nanbokuchō sueki naishi Muromachi-shoki ka

 

刃長壹尺七寸参分有之

Hachō isshaku nanasun sanbun arimasu

 

丁亥神無月上浣

Hinoto-i Kannazuki jōkan

 

探山観併誌

Tanzan kan awasete shirusu

[Okiiimo]

Steve - Thank you for your help! Especially for correcting my mistakes - I think the misidentification of characters and pairing to form the words would have lead me to pit of incomprehensibility.

 

I've added the new information to my translation worksheet and will begin hitting the internet dictionaries to complete defining the words. Here's what I have so far...

 

ps - donation sent

20170401_GassanTanobeSagayakiTranslation.pdf

[Brian]

Thank you Allan for the donation, and also to Thomas and Steve who were the reason. Greatly appreciate it.

[SteveM]

Hello Allan - be careful to double-check some of the kanji and the translations you are using. I have also revised desu to arimasu.

 

for example

年代 →　nendai (not jidai)

貮尺→　壹尺　(isshaku)

有之 → arimasu (I had desu, but it should be arimasu. This just means "is", and doesn't imply "approximation")

而　→ shikōshite

典型的 → this is one compound word (separate from the above "shikōshite")

 

And take another look at the Tanzan signature. There is an interesting discussion here on NMB of the use of these words on a sayagaki. If you search for it, it should pop up.

[Okiiimo]

Steve - Thank you for the last round of corrections and edits!

Brian - Thanks for making such a thing possible by running this forum!

 

I think I'm pretty close to calling it done. One thing I've learned from this exercise (and I've learned a lot) is that there seems to be a fair amount of interpretive license when going from a literal translation of Japanese to narrative English. I'm sure there are errors in the final narrative and I hope I'm close. Photos of the blade in question are attached as well.

 

Thanks all!

 

*draft Final*

 

1) 出羽 国 月山

      Dewa kuni Gassan

      Dewa province Gassan

 

2) 但 薙刀 直し 無銘 也 同派 ノ 特色 十ル 綾杉 肌 ノ 鍛錬 ヲ 顕示し 焼刃 共二 鄙ぶる 風情

Tadashi naginata naoshi mumei nari dôha no tokushoku naru ayasugi hada no tanren wo kanjishi yakiba tomoni hinaburu fuzei

Although (this) halberd is modified (and) unsigned,(it has the) same school characteristics of large wavy grain (and) forged tempered edge (which) together reveals (a) rustic feeling.

 

3) 有 之 而 典型的 也 蓋シ 年代 八 南北朝 末期 乃至 室町 初期 歟

Arimasu shikōshite tenkeiteki nari kedashi nendai wa Nanbochukô sueki naishi Muromachi shoki ka

It is furthermore (in a) pattern (that is) probably typical of an era between the early Nanbochukô and late Muromachi period.

 

4) 刃長 壹尺 七寸 三分 有之

Hachō isshaku nanasun sanbun arimasu

 

 Edge (length) is 1 shaku, 7 sun, 3 bun. (20.6 inches / 52.4 cm) 

 

 

5) 丁亥 神無月 上浣

Hinoto-I kannazuki jōkan

Heisei 19 (2007) (in the) first third of the 10th month.

 

6) 探山 観 併 誌 + kaô

Tanzan kan awasete shirusu + kaô

Tanzan (art name for Tanobe Michihiro) observed and recorded (artists mark)

 

[Surfson]

Thanks to all - this is a very helpful exercise, and I imagine that Tanobe San uses many of the same words on his other sayagaki.  Cheers, Bob

[Jean]

Yes Bob, you are right

[SteveM]

Allan you have again done a very admirable job. I think you have got all the salient points. I would say that when translating these, one is free to take a bit of license in order to render this kind of unusual writing - neither kanbun, nor modern Japanese - into modern English, but every embellishment made takes you (potentially) a step away from the original material, so do this sparingly and make sure every addition is necessary; i.e. adds to clarification rather than distracts from it.

 

You have probably paid too much attention to the original line breaks on the sayagaki. I would render your #2 as two different lines

但薙刀直無名也

Tadashi naginatanaoshi mumei nari

Naginata naoshi, mumei.

My comment: Tadashi is usually translated as however, but that translation doesn't quite work here. It seems too strong. I don't think Tanobe sensei would write, "Gassan, however this one is naginata naoshi and is mumei". Logically it doesn't make much sense, and the order of the words doesn't lend itself easily to other interpretations. I think in this case the opening "tadashi" is just his way of beginning to expose the detail of the contents of the saya (closer to the Japanese 尚 for those who are interested). In this case it is hard to find an exact English equivalent, so I think we can live without one.

同派ノ特色ナル綾杉肌ノ鍛錬ヲ顕示シ焼刃共に鄙ブル風情有之

Dōha no tokushokunaru ayasugihada no tanren wo kenjishi, yakiba tomo ni hinaburu fuzei koreari

The unique "ayasugi hada" forging style of this school is clearly displayed, and this, along with the yakiba, conveys a rustic elegance. 

 

This makes #3 into

而典型的也蓋し年代ハ南北朝末期乃至室町初期歟

Shikōshite tenkeitekinari, kedashi nendai wa Nanbokuchō sueki naishi Muromachi shoki ka

Thus we can say that this is typical of the Gassan style, and perhaps dates from the end of the Nambokucho era to the beginning of the Muromachi era.

My comment: we can tell by the ka at the end (which I've never seen before, by the way) that there is quite a bit of wiggle room in the age estimation.

 

The words in red are words that look like they need fixing. Note the small slanting line in 刃 should cross the vertical line (it is used twice in this sayagaki). Your katakana "na" and "ha" should be ナ and ハ. (It looks like you are using 十 and 八, which look similar, but are different). I made a mistake with 顕示, it is in fact kenji, and not kanji. I'm also not completely confident in 鄙ブル. I know 鄙 is correct, but I am not so sure about the okurigana - it is slightly strange to me, but I don't think it alters the meaning. Finally, pay attention to the okurigana in general and keep them consistent. It is OK to transpose the sayagaki katakana into hiragana, as this is how they would appear in modern written Japanese, but if you are going to do it for one, you should do it for all - again, there is no effect on the meaning of the words, its just a consistency thing. Leaving them all in katakana is fine too. I suppose it is a question of what you are trying to do: are you trying to replicate the writing so that you have a written record of the kanji as they appear on the sayagaki, or are you trying to transpose that writing into modern Japanese for ease of reading? One of those questions that I struggle with whenever I jump into a translation. For example in my transliterations above (putting the Japanese into alphabet), when dealing with 有之 I have gone from arimasu back to koreari since I'm replicating the way it should be pronounced, and am not focused on the meaning at that point. Anyway, I just jot these thoughts down because you have spent some time on this and may be curious about the details. 

 

Again, a very good job.

[Okiiimo]

Wow Steve! Thank you for putting in so much time helping me with this. I truly appreciate it!

 

The first step I took in attempting this translation was trying to understand Tanobe-san's handwriting by finding the corresponding kanji text. From the text, I figured it would be a simple matter of searching the internet by cut & paste for the kanji meaning (it turns out it's not quite that simple!). Handwriting made it difficult for me to even guess at the text kanji, trying to figure out the stroke count and appropriate radicals are obscured to my untrained eye - made it difficult, if not impossible to go from handwriting directly to a translator. Also, to answer your question about which type of writing I was trying to use (hiragana vs katagana) - I wasn't aware I was interchanging the kanji systems. In trying to find the kanji text match to the handwriting I was dependant on translated examples available on the internet. The sources probably used different kanji systems which in my cutting and pasting, I wasn't aware of the kanji system the information source was using.

 

Prior to going through this exercise, I knew nothing about kanji and the Japanese writing. Now, I understand how big that nothing really is. I've got a lot to learn and I thank you very much for guiding me on this first step.

 

The final pdf of the translation is attached.

20170402_GassanTanobeSagayakiTranslation.pdf

[Curran]

Educational.

Nice thread.

[Brian]

Steve, I think I speak for most of us when I thank you for the considerable time you put into assisting people here. :clap: