Another Nihonto Wak...I did it again.

[slavia631]

I know I said I wasn't going to do this...but I did.

 

I bought another mumei Nihonto Wakizashi. And this one seems even nicer than the first. It was very slightly more expensive ($320) but again I an quite certain that I paid much less than it is worth.

 

This one has ZERO surface flaws, and ZERO nicks in the edge, and is FAR from being tired out. It is absolutely gorgeous. (of course it could use a new polish, but the surface is decent as is)

 

This one has quite an active wavy hamon, and extremely tight hada. Notice the sori too...beautiful!

 

I'll let the pics do the rest of the talking:

 

(new sword is above)

 

 

 

(hamon)

 

(tiiight hada)

 

 

 

Again, comments and information would be greaty appreciated. I once again have no information on the age or style, so help would be kindly accepted!

 

 

Books from here on out...I promise!

 

-Andrew

[James]

Can you post a photo of the hamachi, from the photos you've displayed it seems that the blade is very tired.

I can't even see a hamachi.

[slavia631]

Here is the ha-machi.

 

 

I'm no expert by any means, but to me this blade does not seem tired. It is significantly beefier than my other wakizashi, in heft and in all of it's dimensions (especially girth.) There are no forging flaws becoming evident, and of course none of the core steel is peeking through anywhere.

 

Thanks for the help, and hopefully you can tell more from the above photo.

[James]

I'm also far from an expert but from what I know, the tiredness of a blade has just as much if not more to do with how much hamachi is remaining than the niku (meat on the blade). Of course there are exceptions such as the Hizen school who are notorious for forging swords with a thin outer steel layer.

 

As for your sword; I'll let another member conclude as to whether it can take another polish.

[Brian]

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2178&hilit=tired

 

A good thread on "tired" and some interesting comments. I don't see any reason to suspect that your blade is tired though. A look at the difference in thickness at the machi vs the upper nakago will give you some idea though.

 

Looks like a deal to me. Although far from the in-polish and papered swords that we usually recommend, and top level blades that you should be llearning from, if you are going to play in that lower ballpark for your own enjoyment, then it looks to me like you did well.

I don't discourage these lower end blades because if you are clever, then sometime in the future you might sell all of them for a profit, and use that money to upgrade to better swords.

Those that can't afford to jump straight to papered and polished blades should always remember that the goal is to learn and upgrade constantly.

 

This one is definitely a good deal for the price from what we can see (as long as there are no serious problems with it)

Wavy shinogi line and needs a polish of course. Go to the books now, and save for a higher end purchase

 

Brian

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

I don't know who has polished this blade but its is not a good polisher, look at the shinogi on pic called hamon (4th) and at the last one.

[slavia631]

Thanks James, Brian, and Jacques;

 

I bought this blade not because I wish to "dabble" in the lower-end, but rather because I saw potential in this blade to be worth quite a lot more in the future with a good polish job. Since there are no flaws, it seems to me that this blade should someday polish up extremely nicely, and I would be very much interested to experience the "magic" of a good professional polish. Until I have learned more about Nihonto collecting and restoration (and can afford it), I will just hold on to this one so I can make sure it's potential is someday reached. To me, restoring a perfectly "restorable" blade to (paperable?) condition would be just as--if not more-- fun than buying a perfectyly polished and papered blade from the start.

 

Though the only way to correctly do either is to keep reading, which is what I intend to do.

 

thanks,

 

Andrew

[pcfarrar]

Again, comments and information would be greaty appreciated. I once again have no information on the age or style, so help would be kindly accepted!

 

 

I think its probably Shinto, maybe Echizen seki or Owari Seki. Needs a better polish to be able to say more, does remind me of an Owari blade I once owned.

[Guest Nanshoku-Samurai]

Mumei Shinto Seki Wakizashi - not worthy of polishing.

 

Blade USD 320.00 + USD 200.00 Shirasaya + USD 800.00 polishing + USD 50.00 shipping = USD 1370.00 for a full polish Seki Sword with really low end prices in restoration. eBay Value approx USD 1000.00 - USD 1500.00 .... not a good deal ...

 

Or USD 320.00 + USD 350.00 Shirasaya + USD 1400.00 Polishing + USD 70.00 shipping + USD 600.00 Hozon Papers = USD 2740.00 for a papered full polish Seki Mumei Waki when having a better quality job at restoration & Hozon attached (it will never go beyond Hozon). Market Value approx 2000.00 - $2500.00 ... even a worse deal.

 

Hint: Study it and resell it on eBay some time later at around USD 500.00

 

Max, who has bought much on eBay (and yes, there are good deals to be found)

[Guest Nanshoku-Samurai]

PS: Just you don't get me wrong. This is a solid blade and sure worth what you had paid. BUT it is not worthy of restoration from an economic point of view nor from that of a collector (in my personal oppinion) as you would rather want to spend your money for restoring something above average quality.

[slavia631]

Mumei Shinto Seki Wakizashi - not worthy of polishing.

 

Blade USD 320.00 + USD 200.00 Shirasaya + USD 800.00 polishing + USD 50.00 shipping = USD 1370.00 for a full polish Seki Sword with really low end prices in restoration. eBay Value approx USD 1000.00 - USD 1500.00 .... not a good deal ...

 

Or USD 320.00 + USD 350.00 Shirasaya + USD 1400.00 Polishing + USD 70.00 shipping + USD 600.00 Hozon Papers = USD 2740.00 for a papered full polish Seki Mumei Waki when having a better quality job at restoration & Hozon attached (it will never go beyond Hozon). Market Value approx 2000.00 - $2500.00 ... even a worse deal.

 

Hint: Study it and resell it on eBay some time later at around USD 500.00

 

Max, who has bought much on eBay (and yes, there are good deals to be found)

 

Great info, thanks a lot. While a second opinion would be appreciated, I have confidence in your knowledge and experience, and I thank you for going through some of the math for me. How were you able to discern all of this from my photos? Did anything tip you off that I should be aware of, or look for in future blades that I have a chance to observe?

 

I'm glad I found all of this out early in the process. I am confident, at least, that I can make a decent turnaround profit on this blade. But I think I will keep it for a while anyways for observation and comparison puropses.

 

Thanks.

 

Andrew.

[Guest Nanshoku-Samurai]

Hello Andrew,

 

well, just buy blades that you do like in the first place. However if you try to make a quick buck there are other things to keep in mind. For a quick buck best try to find something that is mounted as the money is often in the Kodugu. It is easy to find some good Menuki or Tsuba which may ofen be worth more than the blade itself (in unpolished condition).

 

Also if you can afford go for Katanas, best Ubu and the older usually the better (while tehre are of course many exceptions from the rule)

 

If you try to find something you wish to restore you will need to be more carefull at your choices as there is much money to be lost if you end up with a bad blade. Remember that a flawless blade can suddenly show flaws when being polished. You never know what's underneath. Some flaw can get better, other may get worse.

 

The last blade I had polished was a pretty rusty Gimei Suriage Rei blade in junk Gunto mounts. It came off eBay and I had to pay well over 10 times for restoration than what I've had to pay for the blade itself.

 

Happy hunting,

 

Max

[slavia631]

I have found what looks to be some kind of character along the upper spine of the Nagako, where the Habaki should be:

 

 

There are also what look like 5 "dots" in a row just below the character (hidden by the shadow in the photo), but these just may be scratches of some sort.

 

Does anybody know what this might be?

 

thanks,

 

Andrew

[slavia631]

I still haven't found any clues as to what the above symbol might be. I have found some kanji similar to the marking, but nothing conclusive. Anybody have any ideas?

 

thanks,

 

Andrew

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

It seems this blade was over polished, and the nakago was reshaped to remake machi.

[slavia631]

Is that indicated by the symbol or just an additional observation?

 

thanks,

 

Andrew

[Brian Pedersen]

If i my give my thoughts on this subject?..

 

When i look at that sword, i see a sword that is in need of a good polish..

 

To me it does not look tired at all!..there are no ware, kizu or shingane showing, on the contrary, it looks like it has a substantial amount of niku left.

 

As for the hamachi, that is not really an indication, weather a sword is tired or not..

When a sword is polished, you have to make sure that you get the ha-saki smooth and even, depending on the sword you might have to take a fair bit of the ha-saki..if you want to do a proper job, this means that you have to pretty much touch the ha-saki all over, other wise you will change the sugata.

This of cause means that the ha-saki naturally will get smaller over time.

 

This is why polishers take care not to remove the ubu-ha on gendaito..simply so the sword can be polished a number of times before the ha-saki starts to get smaller.

But, it is not an indication weather the sword is tired or not..that is determined by other factors.

 

Hope this helped a bit?

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

I cannot say if this blade is tired or not; but i can say this blade was fiddled, the shinogi is "sinusoidal" the mune line is rounded under the mune machi (the nakago is not in harmony with the blade) and the mune starts iori and ends kaku (if my eyes well opened).

[Brian]

I think Mr Pedersen summed it all up nicely. It is badly in need of a polish, but looks healthy enough to take one. Jacques is correct that all the lines need to be redone I think. This is what happens when amateurs have a go at leaning up a blade sometime in its past.

I know giving an opinion as a togishi from online photos is difficult enough, so thanks for having a go at it. I hope you at least have some enquiries from the board for some polishing work, but if not yet, they will come

 

Regards,

Brian

[slavia631]

Hi,

 

Would someone kindly enlighten me as to how one can tell that a blade (such as mine) is a shinto Seki blade? Furthermore: what exactly defines a Seki blade, and why aren't they worth very much (relatively speaking)?

 

Thanks,

 

Andrew

[Guest reinhard]

 

Furthermore: what exactly defines a Seki blade, and why aren't they worth very much (relatively speaking)?

 

 

It would take me two to three hours or approximately 20 to 30 pages to explain. I hope you don't mind if I don't. There are no quick answers. Keep on going.

 

reinhard

[Guest Nanshoku-Samurai]

The Kanji is probably just a marking / number to sort out which blades goes with what tsuka or order etc. Nothing of importance.

[Brian]

It would take me two to three hours or approximately 20 to 30 pages to explain

Better get started then, no time to waste. :lol:

 

Andrew, the short answer is that those that have studied the schools extensively start to pick up the points like style of hada, hamon, sugata etc etc and you start to get a feel for where and when a blade was made. This is what the end result of years of study is.

 

As for Seki...like some other schools and traditions, Seki in Mino province was an area of mass production and many of the swords were utilitarian but not high class. There are of course exceptions, but in these schools good weapons were produced, but not great art pieces.

You can find very good examples, but if a school/tradition was mainly known for mediocre swords, then they are obviously not as sought after as other more desirable school works.

 

Brian

 

Ps - Refer to John's page here: http://www.johnstuart.biz/new_page_14.htm

where he says

The town of Seki, Mino province was a major sword producing center during the later Koto period and in the Shinto period. During the Muromachi period there were hundreds of kaji in Seki belonging to many schools within the Mino tradition. This period was also a period of warfare (the Onin wars) and necessitated the production of many swords. As time went by (late Koto- Sue-Seki) there was a tendency to forge swords quickly to supply the needs of the armies and the general quality declined. That is not to say there was not still swords of high quality produced and kaji of reknown

[Guest Nanshoku-Samurai]

Don't get it polished as I had said earlier. You will only waste money. It will never be worth after polishing what you have invested into it. Mumei Shinto Seki Waki is not a money maker ...

[Ken-Hawaii]

I am wondering why you don't just submit your wakizashi to a reputable togi to see what he/she has to say about it.

 

None of us on this forum (with notable exceptions like Keith) are completely knowledgeable about the cost/benefits of polishing, & certainly don't have your blade in hand.

 

Please do let us know the result if you take my advice.

[Guest Nanshoku-Samurai]

Ken, if this was mine I would not even waste the money on shipping it back and forth to a Togi. It won't pay off. But to proove me wrong please may the owner send it to Jimmy, Bob or Moses or all three of them, for a 2nd and 3rd oppinion. Please let us know what they have to say about it. Also Ken you may wish to know that there is unfortunately no reputable female Togi.

[slavia631]

Sold to a friend who will give it a good home.