Indecent Proposal

[Guido]

I hate eBay – I much prefer selling and buying on NMB’s classifieds. However, due to the different time zones the members live in, some tarts are long gone before one gets his fork out. Furthermore, it’s sometimes hard to put a fair price on things, and an auction style sale would give people the chance to bid an amount they feel comfortable with (given that there’s no – or a reasonably low – reserve and/or starting price).

 

Now, I don’t expect Brian to set up an auction system, so what do you think about a Silent Auction?

 

I propose the following: silent bids are submitted via PM or e-mail. When the auction ends (of course a deadline has to be given), the highest bidder wins the item. Another possibility would be that the seller posts daily updates about the highest current bid, but that of course would make it not-so-silent anymore .

 

No buyer’s fees or other eBay hassles, although a contribution should be made to NMB in the case of a successful sale.

 

So, what do you guys think? Of course Brian has the last word on it, NMB is his baby!

 

[Hoshi]

Hi Guido,

 

Good idea. I think you may want to look at the concept of Vikrey auctions. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickrey_auction

 

If enough people participate Vickrey auctions are the best when it comes to matching seller/buyer tru values

[Ken-Hawaii]

Hmm, never heard of Vikrey auctions, Chris, & that might put some burden on Brian to keep track of the top two bids. I do agree with Guido that time zones prevent at least me from buying tarts, but there has to be some specific incentive for Brian to conduct auctions, & the number of sales could quickly get out of hand.

 

Ken

 

[vajo]

Guido since first time i came to Brians board i thought similar. Good idea.

[Guido]

@ Chris: nice idea, but this would need an independent third party to record the bids.

 

@ Ken: Brian wouldn't be involved/burdened in any other way he is now, i.e. just allowing us to use this sub-forum. He could put a stop to that particular type of sale if things indeed get out of hand, but I can't come up with a scenario for that.

[BenVK]

How about using something like this? I've not tried it myself yet but it looks nice and simple with only a one off yearly fee of $100 for as many auctions as you like.

 

https://www.myminiauction.com/

[Brian]

I have no problem with people putting up items publicly here as an auction. In other words, the seller posts the item in the for sale section, sets the start price (reserve) and an end time, and maybe even the minimum bid increments.
People then bid accordingly until the end time. Maybe with the 15 minute rule in place, where a bid near the end adds 15 minutes to the end time to prevent sniping.
However, that still means that to ensure success, you have to be there at the end if you wish to battle it out, and also it is publicly visible who is bidding.
Doesn't solve all the issues, but is one that can be done anytime, and I suggest at least a week running time, and basing all times on GMT.
Sellers are obligated to sell if the start/reserve price is met.

 

If more private auctions are required, then I will look at an add-on to see if we can implement a decent auction system here. We need to upgrade the entire forum to the latest version of the software. Support for the old version is ending soon. That will be done in the next few months, and there are plenty of mods that can be added.
But if anyone wishes to place an auction now in the above format, they are welcome to do it anytime with the provisio that it is treated like any sale, and people reply with their bids, and bids are non-retractable.
 

[TETSUGENDO]

Nice idea guys but all manner of possible pitfalls ahead.  You are putting a lot of burden on Brian, as far as time and possible liabilities, so equitable compensation is only fair.  

 

-StevenK

[vajo]

Maybe a open bid is possible?

The community is a closed group. I would not have any problem to see vajo bids price: xy

[Guido]

There seems to be some confusion as to what I have in mind - I want to keep it as simple as possible, without giving Brian any (additional) headaches, so let me give an example:

 

I post a tsuba for sale with a starting price of $ 300.-, and a one week bidding period (everybody knows when it ends in his time zone if he set the correct one in his profile). Prospective buyers PM me with their offer. One guy may bid just the initial 300, another one 450. I occasinonally post the highest bid in the for sale thread, without giving the name; subscribe to the thread in order to get updates. Someone might decide to bid 600. At the end of the set date and time, I sell to the highest bidder, i.e. the $ 600.- bid. But that also applies if I only get the lowest bid of 300, I'll sell to that person then. I still sell for the highest bid within the given period of the auction, even if I get a higher offer after the deadline. Or nobody bids, and that's it.

 

Yes, there's a loophole: a dishonest seller might post a highest bid he never received, or claim the tsuba is sold although he didn't accept any bid, because he didn't get a sale price that is to his liking; that's like shill bidding on eBay. There's no way to prevent that. However, I've heard a lot of complaints about eBay, Yahoo!Japan sellers, Facebooks sales, or even well known dealers, but to the best of my knowledge no crooks on NMB so far - correct me if I'm wrong. Honor seems to be still working here.

 

So, what is ist: yay or nay?

[Guido]

Maybe a open bid is possible?

The community is a closed group. I would not have any problem to see vajo bids price: xy

 

Some people want to keep it private what they buy, and for how much; actually I'm among them. I bought a couple of times on NMB, without ever making it public. In two cases it was a 4 digit amount.

[paulb]

I think this is a good initiative, thank you Guido. Provided there are no unforseen problems for Brian I thinkwe should give it a go. If it works well, and I dont see why it wouldn't, it offers a much better alternative than some of the commercial sites and as Guido says I dont think there are any crooks on the NMB.

[Brian]

My issue is with transparency. In order for an auction to work, there has to be at least a bit of bidding frenzy. That means that if someone messages the seller that he bids $500, it is easy enough for the seller to take a chance and say that he has a bid of $520 to try and raise the bid just a little. Also nothing to stop him saying that the other bidder backed out if he doesn't get that increased bid.
There is no transparency if the bids are secret. While I understand the desire for some buyers to want to remain anonymous....when playing with large amounts, I don't want a free for all situation where private bids are thrown around without any accountability. What happens if a buyer defaults? A fight between buyer and seller? I also think there should be set increments otherwise it is just a closed bidding process, and someone may throw out a bid of $1000 when the closest real bid was half that, and the seller will claim he had a bid of $950? The buyer should have a chance to get it for lower than his max...that is where the deals come in.
Let me ponder this for a bit. Some may have no problem adding their bids in public. Those that want to remain anonymous may have to work through a mod/admin who will post an anonymous bid on their behalf, and who will then pass on the details to the seller if he wins. Bit more work for admin/mods...but more transparency.
Let me do some research, and we'll come up with something in a week that will work for everyone. Comments/suggestions welcome. Taking it offsite never works. Nihonto auctions off site have been tried before and failed. You need the backing of the forum, and the accountability of the members.

 

[IJASWORDS]

For this to work properly, transparently with a degree of anonymity, there needs to be some back office management/administration. One way is that when an item is offered for auction, WITH a  published reserve and auction finish time, ALL interested bidders are registered and allocated a bidder number. The item is first put up by the seller with reserve and date, and say three days are given to bidders to express an interest and be allocated a bidder number.  

When the auction starts, the administrator/coordinator posts the bids in $$$ against the number of the anonymous bidder number as they arrive. At the close off time, the highest bid is accepted against the bidder number, and the coordinator PM's the winning name to the seller to complete the transaction.  

As part of the description of the goods being auctioned, should also be conditions of sale, currency/shipping insurance obligations/warranties and guarantees/return policy.  

This basically only works if there is a 3rd party managing the process, which in my mind ensures fairness, no sham bids, transparency and communication. Publishing the bids (by bidder number) will ensure competitive tension as well. Neil.

[Stephen]

[Randy McCall]

I like the concept of a silent auction and anonymity, but it does need some help, both for the security of the seller and bidders, and to prevent any NMB issues.

I've seen similar auctions held online which use "auction monitors".  These are non-bidding, selected volunteers who oversee the process and can confirm its legitimacy without breaking privacy.

It would work this way:  The seller announces an item for auction (with any details NMB demands).  Then one or two auction monitors are assigned.  Any bids PMed to the seller would have to be cc'd to the monitor(s) as well to be legitimate bids.  When the auction period ends, the seller confirms the winning user / bid with the monitors, then publicly announces the auction is concluded.  If any other bidder questions the auction, the monitors can confirm the legitimacy of the auction process.

Brian and some of his helpers already have access to much private information on NMB and haven't spilled any of it, so we know honourable people can be found    

To prevent any conflict-of-interest issues, monitors of an auction would not be allowed to bid.  If we can find a small pool of volunteer monitors, then only those not interest in bidding would be assigned.

Thus the load would be off Brian, no single volunteer would get overworked -- really, receiving maybe a dozen or two PMs regarding the auction shouldn't be an issue -- and members get a peer-overseen system which keeps prices / buyer's  names private. 

[kissakai]

I much prefer the status quo

Nothing hidden and it is straight forward

Currently everything I've either bought or sold has ended satisfactory for both parties

If it ain't broke ........

[Brian]

I have already given the go ahead for anyone who wants to post an item in the auction format above.
As mentioned, post the item and pics as always. Post a start price. Don't bother starting at full retail in the hope that you can get more than market value, that's already the FB trick.
Post an ending time (including timezone) and a minimum bid increment. 15 Minute rule applies. You are obligated to sell if your reserve is met.
That is all pretty much the same as we are already doing, except in an auction format.

The only debate is for those that do not want their bids shown in public. Anonymous buyers. In that case..and for now until we can sort out further logistics...pm your bid to the seller, and cc one of the mods and myself..
The seller will then post that he has received a bid of X which is verifiable with a mod.

Note that unlike regular auctions....you will win at your bid price. Not the last bid plus the minimum increment. In other words, if the last bid was $500 and minimum increment is $25 and you post a bid of $600..note that your buying price is going to be $600!
You can't give a higher price, and then expect someone to work out the last price plus increment. So note that clearly.

[BANGBANGSAN]

I  would said keep it  as simple as possible.The first "I will take it" gets it,no need to turn the forum into an acution site.I like the asking and bargain style ,just like when you go to gunshow or flea market.

Maybe I'm the only one like that way.

Trystan

[Stephen]

That rules out diff time zones , really should be fair to all.

[cuttingedge59]

Hi

A positive nod from me .

A bidding system works for me as like other sites I am able to bid up to my budget .

No having to beat the seller down . easy for everyone.

A percentage of sale price to the board would be fair , set by mods.

 

Chris NZ

[tokashikibob]

Guys did we not try this once before? I foget the details but the guy was moving to China and ran a auction on NMB.    We should look at that afteraction report to see what was Groovy and what was Square.

 

  I paring down and could put some tasty bits up.  when we have a final consensus.

Best Regards,

  Bob

[Guido]

A percentage of sale price to the board would be fair , set by mods.

 

Good point. Brian so far only asks for "a tiny amount" (see sticky at the top of this sub-forum), basically leaving it to the discretion of the seller. eBay charges 10%, but is a commercial enterprise with offices, employees, etc. How about something in between, like 5%? That, of course, shouldn't stop people from donating more if they make a profit .

[TETSUGENDO]

If people are going to use this forum as a source of income a 5% payment is, in my opinion, inadequate compensation. BTW, all you privacy lovers are inviting , what I might imagine, would be unwelcome scrutiny. A well established auction format will attract all manner of prying eyes. The odd trading of items between parties of like interest is one thing and regular commerce distinctly another. This board is a very nice place, please consider things carefully.

 

-StevenK

[Brian]

Good point. Brian so far only asks for "a tiny amount" (see sticky at the top of this sub-forum), basically leaving it to the discretion of the seller. eBay charges 10%, but is a commercial enterprise with offices, employees, etc. How about something in between, like 5%? That, of course, shouldn't stop people from donating more if they make a profit .

I don't think I ask for anything...it is and always has been voluntary

To put it in perspective....about 5% or less of sales lead to a contribution...and the contributions average about 2.5% to 5%. This forum continues thanks to a very small, but dedicated pool of regular contributors who usually ask that I do not name them.

I don't want to go mainly auction based. I think auctions would be in the minority. But 5% would be adequate, and still voluntary.