Nanbokucho Sugata

[Darcy]

Going to be listing this soon. I thought it makes for a good idea of how brutal some of these Nanbokucho swords were in comparison to the period beforehand. This is attributed to Hasebe, and the comparison sword is a Juyo Token Rai Kunitoshi. It's wider at the yokote (3.2cm) than most swords are at the machi. Kissaki is just shy of 8cm.

 

It looks like lunchtime.

 

[Ted Tenold]

It's massive in it's current form, but also consider it's osuriage.  What it must have looked like and weighed when it was ubu.  Another consideration that never ceases to amaze me is that the guy that first used it was likely about 5 feet tall and 110 lbs.     

[Greg F]

Wow what a blade. I would love to get a feel of its heft in hand. Does in have Koshirae ? If so would love to see it please. Really looking forward to seeing more pics of this sword and any info. Thank you for sharing Darcy.

 

Greg

[Jean]

60 to 80 years separate these two swords. This Nambokucho katana has a construction with a wide body and a Ô-kissaki which shows the shape of the period between ENBUN and JÔJI (1356 to 1368).

[Brian]

Wow. How history and necessity changed in such a short space of time. That is an impressive sword!

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hello,

 

Speaking of monster swords, a similar sword was presented at one of the Rochester Study Group meetings time ago (measurements below). In the discussion that followed it was noted by one of the members, and probably correctly so, that such a massive sword would have been wielded by a samurai on horseback, who would have used it to cut and slash as he rode through wounding people for foot soldiers to follow up on. After having studied and handled the sword for a week, it was difficult to imagine carrying such a blade around other than on horseback. 

 

 

 

  Quote

Rochester Study Group meeting

Kantei Discussion – April 2nd, 2005

 

Sword # 4: Yamato, Bingo, Ko-Mihara, Kamakura - Nambokucho (1313- 1396)

 

Sugata: Mumei o-suriage 75 cm (96 cm overall), shinogi-zukuri, high shinogi, torizori (16 mm), chu-kissaki, medium iori-mune, moto-kasane 8mm, saki-kasane 5 mm, moto-haba 32 mm, saki-haba 23 mm, bo-hi.

 

Nakago: Mumei o-suriage, bo-hi continues halfway through the nakago, kirijiri, katte sagari yasurime, and two mekugi-ana. 

 

Other: NBTHK Tokubetsu Hozon KoMihara

 

 

 

 

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

I'm not a Katchu expert so I wonder if contemporary armors got heavier as a counter measure,

[vajo]

This is the perfect sword for the Ooe-yamai emaki. 

[Shogun8]

  On 2/10/2017 at 5:04 PM, Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini said:

I'm not a Katchu expert so I wonder if contemporary armors got heavier as a counter measure,

Carlo,

 

In the Nanbokucho and earlier, armour was by-and-large of the o-yoroi type (the so-called "great armour", characterized by their huge sode (shoulder guards), which were designed to fend off arrows), constructed of small, lacquered plates called hon kozane. O-yoroi were very heavy and bulky and were worn by higher-ranked samurai, usually on horseback. Later on came the domaru and haramaki which were still made out of these smaller lacquered plates but were much more mobile and flexible. To my knowledge, the heavier plate armour that started appearing in the late Muromachi/Momoyama were developed as a defence primarily against the matchlock and not necessarily heavier swords.

 

John

[Ray Singer]

Reminds me of the very large Chogi which sold at auction from the Museum of Sword Fittings. Look forward to seeing photos of the Hasebe.

 

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/Lot/a-soden-bizen-katana-unsigned-attributed-to-4376914-details.aspx

 

Best regards,

Ray

[Darcy]

Ray, that is an excellent observation and this was also what I heard in Japan.

 

Koshirae: there is none. This year I tried to make koshirae for a large shinsakuto (oddly enough, a copy of Chogi again) and took a year to try to find fittings just large enough that they could be used (posted here a few times). So I found out that fuchi for big blades are really hard to find.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

  On 2/10/2017 at 6:20 PM, Shogun8 said:

Carlo,

 

In the Nanbokucho and earlier, armour was by-and-large of the o-yoroi type (the so-called "great armour", characterized by their huge sode (shoulder guards), which were designed to fend off arrows), constructed of small, lacquered plates called hon kozane. O-yoroi were very heavy and bulky and were worn by higher-ranked samurai, usually on horseback. Later on came the domaru and haramaki which were still made out of these smaller lacquered plates but were much more mobile and flexible. To my knowledge, the heavier plate armour that started appearing in the late Muromachi/Momoyama were developed as a defence primarily against the matchlock and not necessarily heavier swords.

 

John

 

Hi John. I meant armor for footsoldiers, Kerai and so on, the supposed primary target for these monsters...

[Shogun8]

Ahh, of course Carlo. Ashigaru and the like very often only wore just the front part of a haramaki or tatami dou or haratare (which were often just leather), paired with happuri. I think a warrior swinging one of these hefty blades from horseback with the added momentum would slice through this light armour fairly easily, but I'm sure studies have been done for this sort of thing.

[Jean]

By comparison, the width at the yokote of my Tametsugu is 3,1cm and its length 6,1cm

[md02geist]

  On 2/10/2017 at 5:00 PM, nagamaki - Franco said:

Hello,

 

Speaking of monster swords, a similar sword was presented at one of the Rochester Study Group meetings time ago (measurements below). In the discussion that followed it was noted by one of the members, and probably correctly so, that such a massive sword would have been wielded by a samurai on horseback, who would have used it to cut and slash as he rode through wounding people for foot soldiers to follow up on. After having studied and handled the sword for a week, it was difficult to imagine carrying such a blade around other than on horseback. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm certainly no pro on fighting from horseback by *any* means but I imagine against the more than likely lightly armored footsoldiers (or no armor, at the time a lot of the conscripts didn't really wear armor other than whatever junk they could salvage this was really before the time of regimented ashigaru) the warrior didn't need to do much more than hold it out and ride by aiming the edge at your soft target (and holding on tight lol).

 

The horse momentum probably would have done all the work for you.

 

Now fighting on foot with that bad boy would have been different altogether!

 

Of course this is just idle speculation.

[Stephen]

posted a fuchi that was not much to look at but was functional 

 

again 

 

http://yushindou.com/kanagu-05-267/

[Hoshi]

What was the challenge that spurred the creation of massive blade in this era? Must have been in response to the armor arms-race - but do they coincide with revolution in Yoroi armor? Or as text book would have it, due to the challenges posed by "Thick, boiled leather armor" encountered during the 13th century. I know that the authorities became paranoid about the risk of mongol invasion and hence spent its coffers on improving its arsenal. 

 

However, I don't understand why "Thick boiled leather armor" would pose a greater challenge to sword structure compared to the iron-platted yoroi. 

 

Does anyone have an explanation? 

 

Why were thick swords not developed earlier in response to improvement in soldier protection? Was it because the Mongols had every foot soldier outfitted in cheap to manufacture "thick boiled leather armor" while only warrior elite had the ressources to wear Yoroi plate? 

 

Finally, why not focus on thrusting weaponry as a response to development in slash-resistant armor? As many civilizations have done in the past. 

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Chris, the matter is quiet complicated, If you really want to develop this matter I strongly suggest you to read Willliam W. Farris and Karl Friday on the subject. Academic material that might be sometimes in conflict but that is surely very educational.

[John A Stuart]

I wonder how cavalry used the Tachi in melee? Was it used as a Yari or lance, en pointe? or slashing and sweeping? I have used a sword, large and heavy afoot and it is tiring quickly. Now consider the relative body size difference. The elongated Kissaki, for Tsuki? seems probable rather then Kiriwaza. One handed? No. Two handed afoot for individual combat? It's not clear is it? John

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Considering the weight and lenght, and considering you should hold briddles as well (at least most of the time) I believe such monsters were mostly for foot soldiers.Different lenghts might be for footsoldiers (longer) or cavalry ( a bit shorter and lighter). Reminds me of the European Zweihander. Yeah, there weren't large and tight pikes formation (yet) but still it makes sense. And likely didn't work that well if we consider the short period these swords were used in large number...

 

BTW wheren't they longer but thinner in front of later Tachi/katana in order to save weight ?

[John A Stuart]

Longer offsets the thinner wouldn't it? The ME of a longer beam making apparent weight greater at the Tsuka? Longer would assist in lance-like use from a horse though. The Taduna thing; Yabusame ride with no hands, but, to do that using a sword seems unlikely, I agree. As to Ashigaru and Tachi; few would be able to afford them at that status. What were the battlefield tactics re. swords at this time? I suspect not at all as depicted in Chanbara. John

[Hoshi]

This just adds to the puzzle to me. 

 

As others have said, it seems improbable that these heavy blades were used on horseback (I'm also skeptical that swords at this period were of much use on horseback, when they had spears, and the key technology to carry momentum on the spear from the horse, the stirrup). Furthermore, "foot soldiers" in the classic sense (those who can't afford a horse, i.e ashigaru) would not have been able to afford them. 

 

I read somewhere that the Japanese had a focus on single combat, even during large scale battles - where you would "call" your opponent and engage him. No real formation fighting - which would in part explain the lack of shield walls and spear lines so often found -across cultures- with an emphasis on battle formations. This was further incentivized by the gain in status following victory. 

 

The long, heavy blade makes a lot of sense in the context of one-on-one combat, where the opponent can be expected to be heavily armored, in some cases and where reach is key. 

 

This would match the phenomena observed across Europe towards long blades for purposes of duels. I remember reading somewhere that "blade size inflation" was so pronounced that the English Crown issued an edict on the maximum blade length allowed. In Germany, the professional duelers recruited to settle "Trial-by-combat" had especially long blades. These long swords were produced as a response to improvement in armor technology.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Good thing it doesn't have a cutting test inlaid, with the number of bodies a sword like this could go through all the gold might make kantei strictly for weightlifters....

[paul griff]

Hello,

What a sword ! " The business " as they say..! My choice if I had the cash....Someone will get a great blade there..! Good luck..

Regards

Paul.

[Grey Doffin]

Do we even know for a fact that these massive o-dachi were actually used in battle more often than rarely?  Is it not possible that in the normal course of events the VIPs sat, either on horseback or on a camp stool, adorned in their fancy armor with o-dachi at their sides, watching the actual work of war being done by foot soldiers in make shift at best armor, carrying a spear or whatever sword was available?  That's pretty much how it works now.

The o-dachi I own is in mint condition; doesn't look like it ever saw battle.  Do we know how often o-dachi show signs of use?

Grey

[Jussi Ekholm]

Ōdachi have always been something I like very much. Heck there is something about large two handers be it European, Japanese etc. that just hits me really hard. However when you think about the large tachi, not all of them are really huge. I think you could throw 4 shaku as a divider, ōdachi between 3 to 4 shaku is perfectly usable for trained warriors and those over 4 shaku get increasingly more difficult to use as the length increases. I have been trying to gather a small database for myself of various surviving ōdachi, the unfortunate thing I found out that there are lots and lots of great tachi around 85 cm in length still surviving but actually only quite few when you go over 90,9 cm in length. I will hopefully eventually share that database when I get enough swords added to it. Unfortunately I am so slow in everything.

 

About the use, I have lots of good information in my reference library but unfortunately pretty much all of it is in Japanese. And my own translation from Japanese is extremely slow process filled with errors... (might have to get Markus translate few of these articles for me some day). I wish that I could already share some more definite info but on my research it seems ōdachi were used by foot as well as on horseback. On horseback the momentum would have had aided in use, and on foot the size will give reach.

 

I have started translating a short article from NBTHK magazine - On the use of ōdachi as seen in Bukō Yawa. However my process is full of errors and I probably can never finish it because it is way over my league. Here are some small tidbits that I hope I have translated somewhat properly.

 

  Quote

 

*Thoughts from writer of the article*

 

From my view, a large sword is not made only for dedication to the shrine, I thought that it would have also been used in combat. Of course, there is also for the dedication. For example in Kibitsuhiko jinja there is one of Japan's odachi. However, it is thought that it was also used in combat....

-----

*some bits of text* (I don't know proper translation for this dozen twenty and gang, it seems to be unit size)

 

Ukon Hikita bears the name of Echizen, Mountain road ???? Armed with and odachi of over 4 shaku, dozen twenty and gang made its approach.

Here, a warrior with an odachi, has been teached in the group tactics to be in a dozen twenty and gang.

Since the odachi is long, spears are cut off from troops. You don’t fight with the cavalry as you are your own group.

 

 

 

There is lots and lots of interesting things in this one article alone. It pains me I have so much amazing information that I can't read yet...

 

I just looked at the Futarasan-jinja catalog and ōdachi number 8 attributed to Shizu 141,9 cm blade and 184,4 cm in total seems to have several large nicks on the blade which might indicate them being battle wounds. Same with ōdachi number 12 attributed as Kozori 98,2 cm blade and 129,2 cm in total has several large nicks on the ha and 1 one the mune (at least those nicks it is difficult to look such large swords sized to fit 1 page). There are also few other blades in the catalog that show damage that I would probably think came from battle use.

 

I could spend the whole night writing something about this subject as it is one I like really much. I just tend to start reading more info while writing, or picking up a replica sword and feeling that. So I have to end here or I'll end up putting whole night into this post.

[Stephen]

This has been a good informative thread, Thank you Darcy.