Shinsa Nbthk March 2017

[Kanenaga]

Don't expect the NTHK to necessarily be more forgiving, they have a reputation for being quick to fail blades if there is even the slightest uncertainty.  I have 2 swords that were "pinked" by the NTHK (at US shinsa) and subsequently got TH from the NBTHK. 

 

The only papers to be seen at DTI are from NBTHK.

 

Les

[Gakusee]

In Europe, most dealers and collectors recognise NTHK, what it means etc but still frown upon or refuse to market blades with NTHK papers. NBTHK papers seem much more preferred/established/recognised in Europe and Japan, while my impression is that the US is much more neutral/forgiving when it comes to NTHK papers. People sometimes prefer the fact that the NTHK gives more information (verbally and on the sheets) and travels to their locale (which the NBTHK does not do).

I like both organisations and their teams as being much superior to me (very easy to achieve) and many of the so called advanced collectors. However, from a pure commercial perspective, I have been stung by dealers here in Europe and in Japan who have denigrated NTHK papers or refused to take blades with NTHK papers.

[Bugyotsuji]

Just had a chat with a Ninja.

 

The NBTHK Shinsa team look at anywhere up to 1,000 swords in any one session. Of these on average over the years they have passed around 65% at Hozon and failed 35%. It is in their interest to maintain a strictness about what they do, so they cannot pass everything. 

 

Reasons for fail.

If you look closely at the postcard, you will usually find a comment or two in tiny writing on the right as to why it failed. If you go to pick up the sword at the front desk, if asked, the curator (Gakugei-in) will generally also give you verbal reasons why it failed. (There are other avenues.)

 

At present the high number of submitted swords has to do with resubmissions following the disastrous blue/green Marutoku papering years. They sit five times a year, and once more for Juyo (?) and above. Their salaries are paid out of the shinsa fees.

 

*****Warning. With the opening of the new building in 2018 they may have to cancel a session next year. For example, they could accept up to double the normal number of swords in November and then accept none in March. Probably not written in stone, but an idea that is bouncing around.

 

This message will self-destruct in five minutes.

[Surfson]

I go through those stages after some presidential elections.....

[YOJIMBO]

Does it make sense to send it back later to NBTHK ? Are they able to see that it was already there and failed? ?

 

What is better ? NTHK or NTHK-NPO ?

[Bugyotsuji]

Simon: "Does it make sense to send it back later to NBTHK ? Are they able to see that it was already there and failed?"

 

See post #28.

[YOJIMBO]

No answear on my question in 28 ??? 

[Bugyotsuji]

My #28 answer to your double question was:

"Yes, (I mean no, it doesn't make sense) because in my experience these people have close to photographic memories!

 I have heard stories of the sword then being attributed to the very person whose Mei was on there in the first place."

 

Explanation.

Yes = yes, they are able to see.

No = No, it does not make sense.

 

The reason, = sword kantei people I have talked with can remember having seen a single blade several months or even years later.

 

Possible way(s) around this, = The only way is to wait for a new generation, or have the Mei professionally erased and try again.

[Darcy]

  Quote

Obsolete : Not because the swords did not pass. Because they do not speak English. They do not write English. They do not publish the results. They do not have online document checking. You can not send a sword directly to them. They will not send it back to you. Everything has to go through the agents. They do not meet deadlines. It takes them all a long time. Nor do I know who is in the commission. (Once I met Judge Shinsa ia AOI, I showed him something, he told me, do not try to shinsa- gimei, and I sent it to shinsa - and the result was Hozon.)

 

Ouch. That is a well aimed dart. 

 

Not even sure what to say because your criticisms are very valid. I think though the parts of the agent handling, this is well and good because the NBTHK doesn't want to specialize in import/export and the problems it has, plus not many people even know how to do it right for Japan or other countries and many people with swords don't want to do it right. For the NBTHK to want nothing to do with that is fair, that is something for the marketplace to serve. 

 

But it would be nice if there were more international options for language and it would grow the hobby if it were more available to everyone. This is a process that we hope can improve over time and I am myself on my other projects dealing with the same issues. 

 

My own feeling is that where Japan is concerned, patience and politeness and positivity will generate results over the long haul. It is frustrating to not have things instantly how we want them (or even over a decade) but there is a lot of momentum especially in the sword world to do it how things have always been done. I would like to see the NBTHK move into the digital world and am making my own efforts there and I think that they will all bear fruit but it is just going to take time.

 

As long as they have the best expertise they won't be obsolete but I 100% agree with you in that I feel as if I am asking Moses to go up the mountain and bring me down some stone tablets, and when Moses arrives empty handed with no explanation all I can do is shake my fist at the uncaring God who gave me no guidance. There are probably reasons for that I don't know. 

 

I don't know what swords you got rejected and that's important for anyone to know. My own tosogu submission I can see no reasonable reason for it to not come back with Kyo-Kinko so I will just deal with that by asking the NTHK myself. 

 

For the deadlines, NBTHK for my experience has not been late. Stuff is slow, you submit and wait a few months and get it back but I haven't had stuff held for no reason. 

 

It can be overwhelming for them due to volume and the limits of human abilities, that I can sympathize with. 

[Darcy]

  On 6/26/2017 at 12:07 PM, YOJIMBO said:

Does it make sense to send it back later to NBTHK ? Are they able to see that it was already there and failed? ?

 

What is better ? NTHK or NTHK-NPO ?

 

 

Different people will have different opinions here. There is a long history. 

 

When I send my menuki in I will use the NTHK (Yoshikawa).

[YOJIMBO]

  On 6/27/2017 at 1:34 AM, Bugyotsuji said:

My #28 answer to your double question was:

"Yes, (I mean no, it doesn't make sense) because in my experience these people have close to photographic memories!

 I have heard stories of the sword then being attributed to the very person whose Mei was on there in the first place."

 

Explanation.

Yes = yes, they are able to see.

No = No, it does not make sense.

 

The reason, = sword kantei people I have talked with can remember having seen a single blade several months or even years later.

 

Possible way(s) around this, = The only way is to wait for a new generation, or have the Mei professionally erased and try again.

 

That they would remember, I do not think. That's silly. Think about it - do they remember thousands and thousands of swords? Surely not.

I rather mean some technical measures. Such as torokusho number comparison, agent name etc ...That's what I'm asking. Not information: someone said .... but only facts.Otherwise we will not move.

[Guido]

Simon, before anyone can give you a meaningful response, you have to tell us why the swords failed. As was pointed out before, there are sometimes remarks on the self-addressed post card one hands in when submitting the sword. Did the agent show them to you / sent you a scan? Or did he ask for the reason when picking up the swords? If so, what did he learn? And if not, why didn't he?

 

That the judges don't remeber every single item is evident from the fact that people sometimes get different results/attributions when submitting mumei swords or fittings multiple times. If the item has a very unique characteristic, they might remember it, but I don't think they would care, i.e. "punishing" you by failing it for that reason alone - after all, someone else could have bought it in the meantime, not knowing it failed before (the name of the owner/agent is not disclosed to the judges, that's why the tags have serial numbers).

[Bugyotsuji]

In the light of Guido's wise post above, I would like to soften the tone of my earlier post. Not everyone has a photographic memory!