A suraged katana in JSA

[Guest pleasemx]

Hi everyone,

 

I found this suraged katana in JSA. After a careful scrutiny, I started the bidding. It seems so strange that no other people joined in. So at last I won it at a price of 300,000 yen ($2800).

Now I'm a little uneased. The absence of competitor in a bid always means a bad taste. My prime goal is the do some investment in those awesome swords. So I can't purchase something just because I like it. That's not rightful.

 

I also noticed that there are few people now in JSA. None of the swords listed there has received any bid. Is anything wrong there?

 

Thanks!

[Paul Loatman]

Where is this JSA you speak of?

 

Also, that sword looks great, the habaki alone looks like it's got some value and history behind it, can't answer you're questions though, sorry.

[Brian]

JSA is a Japanese auction site:

http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/japa ... links.html

 

Sword looks good to me at first glance, at at that price it looks like a good deal.

Not quite sure what is going on in that nakago though...will take a closer look when I get home. Need to check the placement of the mei, and the 2 yasurime division lines and all the ana and see if they all check out according to the suriage job that was done.

 

 

Brian

[Guido]

My prime goal is the do some investment in those awesome swords. So I can't purchase something just because I like it. That's not rightful.

"Buy now, ask questions later" is a great way to achieve your goal. You'll earn more money than you can possibly spend in no time.

 

Am I the only one who thinks "troll" whenever reading a post by our esteemed "pleasemx"??? Broken off tips on Mukansa swords anyone? Real name policy anyone?

[Brian]

That's why I implimented a new profile field that has to be filled in with real name when you register Check out any profile of a member after Feb 1'st.

 

Xuan Mei, I am sure an introduction is well past due by now.

 

Brian

[Guest pleasemx]

Hi Paul and Brian, thanks a lot for your kind concerning!

 

Your reply really release me from anxiousness. I thought I have but a little taste in Japanese swords and I decided to do some swords business using my scholarship, which can not only improve my knowledge but earn some money for the future use. But I know clearly that I'm quite far from a real expert in sword like you. so I think I'd better get your expertise upon this sword. What I'm worried about is the O-Suriage. Although a lot of people have their interest in beautiful hamon and bright nie and nioi, I guess a true Japanese collectors won't have a look at this shinto beacause of the O-Suriage.

 

 

Hi Guido, I know I made stupid mistakes. I'm filled with remorse everytime I see the broken kissaki of the Mukansa's sword. It was totally an accident and I didn't!mean to hurt it. Everytime I recalled that terrible scene,I would rather it was my arm but not the sword been broken!

 

You can believe me that this mistake will never happen agian! I have joined the Mugai Ryu Iaihyodo last month in order to accquire the basic sword skill. And I won't cut with these valuable swords from now on.

[Guido]

Xuan Mei, I am sure an introduction is well past due by now.

I used to live in China for more than 4 years - and actually will move back there in August - and therefore recognize "Mei" as a typical female given name. Which, sexist as I am, explains a lot.

[Guest pleasemx]

Hi Guido, glad to meet a person knowing so mcuh about Chinese culture

In China, "Mei" means "plum tree", a vital plant blooming beautifully in winter. So it's a very popular surname for girls.

But here it's my family name, my given name is Xuan.

[kanetoyo]

Hi Xuan

 

Your kanetomo is Mino school of "Shinto seki" The reason with few bids of an JSA auction has high start price. And there are many swords of 2nd class. Maybe, Your kanetomo is no problem.I think that a signature and sword is good. Gimei cannot be perceived only by signature. The smith who is not found in oshigata book exists innumerably. There are many collectors who call it "gimei" which is not found in oshigata book. I cannot consent to it.

 

kanetoyo

http://www.geocities.jp/kanetoyo2666/shop/

[Guest reinhard]

"...and I decided to do some swords business using my scholarship, which can not only improve my knowledge but earn some money..."

 

What scholarship? Obviously you think this is all about money first and learning will come along as a by-product with a little help from the naive friends of the NMB. Anyway, you get what you deserve. For the ones, who want to solve a case here, I post an image, which should explain, what's wrong with your sword. Hints: the plugged mekugi-ana, the continuation of the shinogi-line, the yasuri-me.

 

reinhard

[hybridfiat]

For those who are fascinated by this discourse but who have not the knowledge or the wherewithall to research an answer, could we beg a more elaborate answer to the question of why this blade is not all that it seems.

Sincerely

Steve

[Guest pleasemx]

Hi reinhard, sorry for my inappropriate expression. The main reason I bought this nihonto is just because it attracted me so much. I did plan to earn some money in swords, but it's just because I like them very much. If I just need profit, there are many ways which can yeild more.

I didn't mean to "use" someone, that's why I completed my purchase first and then asked a question here.

 

 

Do you mean they pluged a mei from others to this mumei sword?

But since the "kanetomo" here is not a famous shinto smith, faking seems a little meaningless, I think.

[Jean]

Foxy Reinhard has written :

 

the continuation of the shinogi-line, the yasuri-me.

 

Steve,

 

Perhaps also a few questions :

 

Why this horizontal line just above the mei?

 

Henceforth, from the left picture

 

why this colour difference between the upper and the lower part of this line?

Why different yasuri-me between the upper and the lower part of this line?

Why is the shinogii line crisp above this line and rather erased under?

[Brian]

OK, we are done talking about issues beyond the swords here folks. Please keep to the issue at hand. Any further comments of a personal nature will be deleted.

 

I am also keen to hear theories on the sword, as the nakago also didn't look completely right ot me, but I'm not confident enough to say it was altered or not.

 

 

Brian

[Ichi]

If the filled holes were the original, then å…¼å‹ã€€mei is way too low positioned and not proportional right.

[Brian]

Looking at it, and the evidence, I would say that the mei was cut off another sword, and welded very well onto the bottom of this katana?

If this is the case, then the blade does look nice enough to have the bottom of the nakago removed to make it a rather nice mumei piece?

The nakago looks long enough to cope with this. Funny..because the blade does match the Kanemoto school, and even as a mumei piece it doesn't look to be such a bad deal.

 

Brian

[Jean]

Agreed on your conclusion Brian, Once removed the mei, it looks good.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

 

because the blade does match the Kanemoto school

 

Of course, it's signed KANETOMO (Naoe shizu school) :lol:

[Brian]

Yep...my silly mistake. Had too many swords in mind at the time, combined wtith trying to reply while on the phone to clients.

 

Brian

[kanetoyo]

Hi There

 

I consider about this sword. It is very easy to deny this sword. It is that anyone can do. I also feel doubt about "ubu ana." Yasurime seems to be higaki. Yasurime of higaki is very difficult. Almost no higaki is in mino of the Edo period. I think that the work was not handed down to them. It will be impossible also to a present-day blacksmith. This sword has the possibility of the sword of muromachi. Ubu ana may have been the lower part of a signature. Anyway, nobody can do "kantei" with a photograph.

[bluboxer]

Hello all,

An interesting feature is the lack of this "line" on the other side of the nakago.Also the metal just looks different as to color; aside from the already mentioned yasurime.This section could have been welded onto the blade but the weld joint would have to be raised in order to file down and re-patinate the joint and if they went to this much trouble why leave an obvious division line on the side w/mei.

Alan M

[Guest reinhard]

This katana pretends to be greatly shortened with only the top section of the original nakago left. I would expect to see this on BOTH sides of the nakago. The sashi-ura looks very different from the sashi-omote in general. The number and placement of the mekugi-ana suggest a shortening in at least three steps. No such thing is visible on the sashi-ura. If the top three quarters of the nakago belong to the former blade section, the continuation of the shinogi-line into the nakago should be a well-defined line, for it was originally the shinogi of the blade, but it is definitely not on the sashi-ura side of the nakago. The (supposed) former shinogi-ji varies considerably. It becomes thin in the area of the plugged mekugi-ana and broadens again below. This is just not what a shortened blade looks like, but it gives a strong notion of manipulation. BTW the bottom one of the plugged mekugi-ana seems to be of odd shape (i.e.not round).

 

There are countless Seki-style swords with (false) KANE-something mei. This one, in all probability, seems to be one of them.

 

I agree with Kanetoyo, that you cannot do proper Kantei of a whole sword on the basis of a photograph, but you can tell quite a lot about nakago, provided that you get reasonable pictures or oshigata.

 

reinhard

[Paul Martin]

As everyone has said previously, to kantei this blade through fuzzy photos cannot be done. However, try not to confuse good or bad suriage with forgery. I agree the extra mekugi ana and plugs look somewhat strange.

 

The major premise in all cases of suriage is to save the original inscription and/or some of the original patina etc. This is where good or bad suriage comes in. In the case of this blade the nakago is different on either side. This is actually a good sign as on the sashi-omote the inscription has apparently been saved. When a blade is shortened the togi-damari (rather thick bump where the polish ends) must be adjusted or the habaki will not go over it to get to the new machi. Compared to the rest of the blade the nakago is reasonably soft and can be manipulated. Rather than work both sides of the nakago, it is a better process to remove steel from only the side without an inscription (sashi-ura) then bend the nakago back inline with the rest of the blade. Please see this diagram on the corrct suriage process. http://www.token-net.com/faq/12_suriage_img.html

 

In the case of multiple-suriage like this one possibly is, on the second (or so shortening) the blade is filed on both sides to just above the original inscription and all the way on the sashi-ura. Hence the change in the patina, the dividing line and differing yasurime above and below the dividing line just above the inscription and the complete difference the whole length sashi-ura. The narrowing of the shinogi-ji in the area of the plugs is also consistent, as that area was not filed as much so as not to disturb them needlessly as they may be original from the first suriage. There are also other factors to be taken into consideration when performing suriage such as niku-oki (the meat of the nakago) and the need to remove the hamon in the area of what is to become nakago by heating. If this is not performed filing will be extremely difficult, and even when it is done the original line of the hamon is still visible and the uneveness of the yasurime can also be felt when running your fingers over it.

 

Best

[sencho]

Great post, Paul... thanks for passing on the knowledge...

 

cheers!

[Jean]

Fantastic post Paul , thanks a lot for this e-lecture.

 

Now, on the mei side the shinogi is crisp above the line and seems erased, flattened, under the line, what could be the explanation?

 

I am trying to understand,

 

(forgive the English - I am trying to be clear :lol: :lol: ) Seeing the blade from above (mune side), I have shaved/filed the right side of the nakago, to leave the mei intact. So the Nakago is no more centered/in line. To right it I have to bend it slightly to the right (am I right?) in that case should the line not be on the right side and not the left side where there is the mei?

 

I am sure I am wrong but where is my mistake?

[Jean]

Afterthought,

 

Could it be that the nakago has bee shaved/filed on the mei side just above the mei and then slightly bent above the mei to recenter it?

 

But why do it on the mei side and not on the other side, where is the logic?

[Paul Martin]

Hi Jean,

 

If you are asking what I think you are asking....

 

The clear division just above the mei is not from bending but from where they stopped filing so as to save the mei and surrounding patina. Above the division (adjusted) is the new kiri-yasurime, whilst below (preserved) around the mei is taka-no-ha. Also, the nakago of this blade would suggest that it has been shortened more than once.

 

as per you previous question, which side you remove or bend depends on which side it is signed and you are trying to preserve (tachi-mei/katana-mei etc).

 

I hope this is what you mean.

 

Best

[Jean]

Thanks a lot Paul, in fact my English was not so bad for you understood it very well :D :D

[Guest reinhard]

With all due respect to suriage-theory: Have a look at the yasurime again. Some kiri-patterns here, some o-sujikai there, criss-cross patterns all over the place. A sharp continuation of the shinogi-line down to the second mekugi-ana and a dull and wavy outline below. As to the (supposed) remaining part of the original nakago: higaki-filemarks? (as someone said) or maybe taka-no-ha? (unfortunately with rising marks crossing the border to the setting ones) and some kiri-patterns visible anyway. The whole nakago is shouting: gimei!

This is not supposed to be a refutation of Paul's suriage-theory, but experience and gut-feeling are telling me, that this nakago is not what it pretends to be.

 

reinhard

[Jean]

Kanetoyo-san is right, I think that it is difficult to say anyting without hoding it.

 

It would be interesting to put it into shinsa.

 

One thing for Reinhard, if we look closely to this dividing line, it seems it has been done witha a chisel. Any good craftman could have reshaped the upper part of the nakago without doing this and preserving the mei.

 

I am not satisfied with the down part being welded neither, (from pictures)