General Development Collecting Nihonto/tosogu

[Guest Rayhan]

Polishing is an art form in itself I believe and should go toward the overall value. Why should we discount the years one spends learning to polish an art sword. The polisher opens the window to the past for a collector and reveals what the smith intended to represent himself for generations to come.

 

I agree with you IJASWORDS (sorry can't see the name) watches of certain model are collected for their increased price over time and the supply demand model kicks in. But what I was referring more towards was the fact that education and experience of being part of an exclusive club are far more apparent in watches than swords which is something we should change and nurture. Nice watch by the way!

 

Not to digress I still feel if we educate future collectors we will see an uptake in demand and all based around diminishing supply. Let's face it, and they aren't making many Gendai either. Time is on our side.

 

Rayhan Perera

[IJASWORDS]

Sorry Rayhan, name is Neil, and is lower down on the post.

Maybe you should ask collectors how THEY came to appreciate swords/blades, and then use this information to formulate an education program.

I got an interest in Japanese blades studying Metallurgy, and learning about their steel making and heat treatment.

I know a collector whos first contact with swords was in a Samurai movie.

I know a guy that actually bought his first sword to put under his bed for protection.

There has been some great sword documentaries on the HISTORY CHANNEL on cable.

NHK, the English Japanese news channel has had documentaries on swords.

Information is out there, but you can a horse to water......

First step, get it out of peoples heads that they are weapons only!! Neil.

[Jussi Ekholm]

Welcome to the forum Rayhan. I was happy to read your post. I'll just write a short reply as I am at work.

 

I think the opposite that there are lots of mentors who are willing to share their knowledge but not too many young/new collectors to use that help.

 

Many European countries have their own Japanese sword societies with knowledgeable members. I think most of them would welcome members with open arms if a new interested collector would walk in the door.

 

And then we of course have the NBTHK here in Europe, you can learn so much at the NBTHK meetings.

 

For example here in Finland a new enthusiast could get into our meeting in a heartbeat but those are really hard to come by. We've tried to do some public presentations and small lectures but it is difficult to create interest if there is no desire for swords.

 

I always think sword collectors & martial artists as the most potential group for future collectors but don't know if that is true...

[Guest Rayhan]

Jussi I think we need to consolidate a strategy for this. Combining social media and other platforms to see the interest garnered and more physical awareness and organic growth. We can do it as long as everyone here is willing to build the initiative.

[Alex A]

Where does this notion come from that there is becoming less interest in Japanese swords?, pretty sure Brians number of members increases by the year, am I wrong?.

 

Lots of interest, just not lots of interest willing to pay a small fortune for a sword, for many reasons.

 

Check out Ebay sales of swords around £450-£1300, business is bustling.

 

I agree about shipping issues, bit of a concern.

 

All English speaking collectors/enthusiasts read whats said here. If anything is going to put off new collectors, its talk of falling prices, shooting oneself in the foot.

 

As a point on pricing, don't see any evidence of this on Aoi (as an example), prices have remained consistent. The only prices I see falling are the prices in the sales section here, think maybe its become expected. Have we become delusional on pricing in our NMB world

 

 

I enjoyed what Peter had to say about collecting in the "good old days", wished id been there, all feels a bit "spoon fed" these days, with so much info available and papers on tap, so to speak, but I suppose it has its pluses

[tokashikibob]

My wife and myself love English/French mahogany furniture from the 19th century. You can buy them now for almost nothing. We recently purchase a splendid 19th century mahogany buffet for 200€. Youngsters prefer buying a ckd one at 400€ from Ikea... however you will pay $$$ if you want to buy chairs from the 70's...

   Dealing in antiques part time, all the time, for a long time.  It is interesting living thru the changes of the collecting culture.    I wonder like Jean every weekend in regards to furniture.   Victorian dark furniture is next to worthless now while when I was a young antique buyer circa 1980 it was quite expensive.   However you will pay thru the roof for 60's and 70's furniture and objects from that era that were thrown away in the past i.e. Lava lamps and velvet paintings esp. semi nude women and who wouldn't like one of those, or a classic velvet Elvis!

 

   Things change when people of a certain generation die off and their collective interests lose much of their popularity.  Shirley Temple, stamps, Lionel Trains for example.

 

However new subject matter do move to the forefront,  mid cent items, starwars, video game related gear and even old computers I think.

 

Military related items will always be there ebbing back and forth in popularity with anniversary's, movies and a major current conflict moving the needle.

 

Is anyone a fan of the "Forged in Fire" show on history channel?    That show is a real boon for our hobby as I have enjoyed every episode over the last few years.   It must be doing all right in viewership as it has run multiple seasons.

 

   I also agree that a blockbuster movie would be a great thing to drive 20 year olds to search out the hobby.    Maybe a remake of Shogun would be a easy thing for Hollywood to produce.

 

One last thing,  as far as Shinsa goes; I ponder the idea of having U.S. based professionals offering a alternative summery paper at the U.S. shows that don't have Shinsa?    In lieu of getting a Japanese based group at a show you could have a panel of our U.S. based professionals render valuable information on a submitted sword and sign off on it for a lower fee.    I know I'd like to have assumptions on my favorite blades verified or disputed by a group of pros at a reasonable cost with paperwork to back it up. 

 

Best Regards,

   Bob

[Peter Bleed]

"Regarding Peter Bleed's lamentation about a sword that won't go beyond T. Hozon: They can't all pass to Juyo, even if they are good candidates. If all swords that were worthy passed to Juyo, then there would be no sense of accomplishment and no real reward."

 

In addition to the spoon feeding, many in the current generation seem to be completely humorless and without any appreciation for IRONY.  I was making a JOKE.

Peter

[Alex A]

Edit, me getting wires crossed, all is well  

 

Cheers for clarification Brian.

[Brian]

No..Peter was refering way back to post #27, where Rayhan took his comments too literally, instead of the intended irony.

[Peter Bleed]

No, Alex, it was NOT aimed at you. I was snapping about earlier posts that told me that Tokubetsu Hozon is OK and not to be lamented. Obviously, a sword judged "Especially Worthy of Preservation" deserves a place in a sword collector's holding. How could a serious sword collector  "hate" to own such a sword? I was being ironic - or at last trying to be. In any case, I  should not have snapped. I saw your comments as in line with mine.  I apologize to you and the Board.

BUT SINCE WE'RE HERE...

Please let me explore a bit farther about how standardization has changed sword collecting.

My basic feeling is that  until recently individual sword collectors had to and could make up their own minds about what they liked and what they considered worthy of collecting.Making those decision used to be FUN and Informative and very individual. There is still a great deal of individual freedom and choice, but as sword collecting has developed the categories of what is "really desirable" have changed.

In general, there has been a growth in  interest  in rather early koto blades. At the same time, it sure looks to me like interest in particular lines and regional schools has ebbed. Parallel to that, it sure seems that interest in Shinto blades has rather fallen off.  There is less interest in getting another... . Tadayoshi, Ujifusa, Kinmichi, Masanori ... or whatever (please notice that I did NOT mention Kunikane). That kind of collecting has probably gotten harder and more expensive than it used to be. But I think the MAIN reason for the change is that modern collecting has given up those kinds of categories  and replaced them with categories of VALUE and "IMPORTANCE". Instead, of aiming AT WHAT THEY HAVE DECIDED IS WORTHY. lots of collectors seem to be proud of assembling  stuff that experts have come to judge worthy. With organization, individual judgement has been replaced by authority..It also may be that "Important' categories have become  inflated. In understanding that at the last Token Daiichi there were lots of mere Juyo blades that went unsold because serious players wanted JUBI, or maybe even JUBU.

Along with all of that there has been the well documented blossoming of interest in Gendai-to and gunto . Literature and expertise in that area has blossomed, but it has also been an area that individual collectors can access, explore, and use. It also happens to be an area that has not been completely dominated by Japanese authorities. Import restrictions and other historical reasons have allowed foreign collectors some special advantages in these areas. The price of some of these items strikes me as right up there with Holland bulbs, but I sincerely respect the collector interest that informs this collecting area. I especially wish that  I'd been more attentive to things like copper handles NCO swords OMG!

I like thinking about swords and I deeply appreciate the NMB. Thank you all for allowing me to express myself.

Peter

[Chango]

Very interesting discussion!

 

The way I see it, there are two constants in the universe. One is death, the other is that men WILL geek out over their instruments of death. 

 

Westerners have been fascinated by Japanese swords at least since the 1500s  and the Asians have been for far longer. I don't see that changing anytime soon...and If anything, popular Japanese culture/history has never been more familiar to non-Japanese people, especially the younger generations growing up on a steady diet of Anime and Japanese themed video games. Try asking a group of American kids if they've heard the name Nobunaga or Miyamoto Musashi before... you might be surprised by how much Japanese history they've accidentally filled their heads with!

 

Anyway, I don't see Nihonto ever becoming uninteresting to the masses or becoming undesirable and/or not collectable, no matter how the political winds blow. Now the Nihonto market has been quite the volatile one over the centuries so raw values will change but no one will ever be giving them away for free.

 

That said, being a fairly new convert to Nihonto from the "reproduction world" myself  makes it easy to see why there are few newcomers who stick around for the long haul... this is a pretty damn tough hobby! There is a steep learning curve, the high cost of truly good, papered blades and a glut of less than great swords along with a dearth of outright fakes on the market to be swindled by and have your enthusiasm snuffed out.

 

I think there is also a false belief among the uninitiated that Japanese swords are great investment purchases, like gold bars or even some other fine art pieces. Americans especially go ga-ga over things that are hundreds of years old; I suppose it's because we rarely see truly old stuff over here so it's easy to tempt us newbies with an "amazing" 500 year old rusty steel bar that may or may not have been a katana at one time.

 

So in the end, if you can't cut things in half with your Nihonto, need the equivalent of a PHD in study effort  to really understand the nuances of 1000 years of Japanese sword history and the high cost of entry for swords that may or may not hold their value over your lifetime, is it any wonder there aren't potential new students lined out the door to join in the fun?

 

That's OK though... less competition means I have at least a chance to keep scratching this weird Nihonto itch that just won't go away.

[Guest Rayhan]

Hey Peter I had no intention of coming across as critical of your comments but if it was seen that way I am sorry sir. I only referenced that we can't all reach Juyo. Gomen'nasai.

 

I still do believe (my humble opinion) that great swords are great investments. Like any art investment if there is a foundation market value and it has been curated well it will have a buyer, if there is a currency play, if it has provenance and above all else timing is spot on (like any trade) it will liquidate well. Whether one wants to or not is a different story, circumstances are just that.

 

I hope to learn more on how that can be achieved with advice from many of you here.

[Jussi Ekholm]

As I am of the younger generation of collectors I know some things that might get young folks into swords but the difficult part is getting these interested ones into collecting & appreciation.

 

I am not sure how well Tōken Ranbu is known in the western world? But it is a game where basically famous swords are shown as young men. I have heard that this is quite popular among the young girls/women in Japan. http://www.dmm.com/netgame_s/tohken/I believe there was just an anime adaptation of this game.

 

In the anime front there is pretty much a new series that has swords & samurai every new season. For the fall 2016 I think most popular "sword anime" was Drifters. Personally I didn't like it too much. Story synopsis can be read at https://myanimelist.net/anime/31339/DriftersBut in short main trio is Shimazu Toyohisa, Oda Nobunaga and Nasu no Yoichi.

 

Then on the western front there is the new AAA game from Ubisoft that can get pretty popular on release in February. For Honor is in closed beta and I watched the top Twitch streamers getting first touches on it in front of pretty big viewer numbers. Game is Samurai vs. Knight vs. Viking. https://www.ubisoft.com/en-US/game/for-honor/

 

I have to share Peters thoughts of sword collecting being fun being one of the key aspects. For me collecting should be fun and unfortunately as my own taste has gotten more refined most of the actual collecting will be done far in the future. I most likely will jump in on a screaming deal but at the moment it is impossible to get the stuff I really want...

 

Because buying a authentic sword is a very big decision for most then new buyers often want to ask help in order to get a good deal and not get burned on it. I think that it is a great thing that people are asking advice but at the same time I think we arrive to the fact that Peter pointed out earlier, the decisions are not necessarily that personal anymore. Are you buying what you really like or are you buying a sword that the community thinks is good?

[vajo]

Thats the point for me Jussi.

"Are you buying what you really like or are you buying a sword that the community thinks is good?"

For me I buy only what i like to look on. 

[md02geist]

As I am of the younger generation of collectors I know some things that might get young folks into swords but the difficult part is getting these interested ones into collecting & appreciation.

 

I am not sure how well Tōken Ranbu is known in the western world? But it is a game where basically famous swords are shown as young men. I have heard that this is quite popular among the young girls/women in Japan. http://www.dmm.com/netgame_s/tohken/I believe there was just an anime adaptation of this game.

 

In the anime front there is pretty much a new series that has swords & samurai every new season. For the fall 2016 I think most popular "sword anime" was Drifters. Personally I didn't like it too much. Story synopsis can be read at https://myanimelist.net/anime/31339/DriftersBut in short main trio is Shimazu Toyohisa, Oda Nobunaga and Nasu no Yoichi.

 

Then on the western front there is the new AAA game from Ubisoft that can get pretty popular on release in February. For Honor is in closed beta and I watched the top Twitch streamers getting first touches on it in front of pretty big viewer numbers. Game is Samurai vs. Knight vs. Viking. https://www.ubisoft.com/en-US/game/for-honor/

 

I have to share Peters thoughts of sword collecting being fun being one of the key aspects. For me collecting should be fun and unfortunately as my own taste has gotten more refined most of the actual collecting will be done far in the future. I most likely will jump in on a screaming deal but at the moment it is impossible to get the stuff I really want...

 

Because buying a authentic sword is a very big decision for most then new buyers often want to ask help in order to get a good deal and not get burned on it. I think that it is a great thing that people are asking advice but at the same time I think we arrive to the fact that Peter pointed out earlier, the decisions are not necessarily that personal anymore. Are you buying what you really like or are you buying a sword that the community thinks is good?

 

 

I'm in the closed beta for that game "For Honor" and I can tell you that if you enjoy complex combat systems akin to fighting games, as well as a VERY steep learning curve then you'll like this game. It seems to appeal to the same sort of people that put hundreds and hundreds of hours in to the Dark Souls etc titles.

 

If you don't dig that sort of thing then you probably won't enjoy it. It looks really cool and character design is neat but I'm not loving it so far, I'm too old and don't have enough freetime to devote to learning the nuances and mastery of every single option in a single video game. I just don't *care* enough to put hundreds of hours into one game.

 

I'm playing it some but I'll just never be probably very good at it. I still get killed by the computer sometimes.

[vajo]

Ha is that the computer corner

I develop games. Last one was silent depth ( a submarine simulation) for smartphones.

[pcfarrar]

War Thunder flying Zero's in VR on the Oculus Rift is excellent. Much better than "For Honor", which I've also played.