Nco Shin Gunto - Real Or Rotter?

[Shamsy]

Oh! I'd forgotten about this one I used to own. Higher serial numbers but basically a match to the sword in question. It was a good example but unfortunately the scabbard was also a repaint. There was still a little of the original olive around the throat and when I took the throat out, the brass locking bar confirmed repaint (it was the original olive green to. PS that is the best way to tell if the paint is original since I don't think anyone every takes the throat out). I decided to upgrade so sold (and yes, I stated it was repainted).

 

The sword has a rounded termination to the bohi.

I can run these through a programme ( ) to lighten them up if you like. They're pretty dark I admit.

 

EDIT: Fixed the pics as best I could

[IJASWORDS]

Been watching from the side lines with interest. Decided to look at the fine detail. I am coming down on the side of mixed original and modern components. I even went down to counting the "dots" level on my un-issued NCO of the same model. Just looking at the handle, either the Japanese got slack in their quality (doubt this), or sub-standard pattern or casting technique was used (doubt this as well). The devil is in the detail. Neil.   

[Shamsy]

The quality of tsuka casting decreased over time. I was also dependant on the manufacturer. There are also several different wraps and hilt variations.

Before someone jumps on this, you can only compare tsuka from the same manufacturer and even within a similar serial range.

[Stegel]

I'm not too sure now guys, even though this example of an NCO was described as not great, I was hoping that I might be able to take my first step on the collectors ladder (If the money was sensible). My wait might now go on some time, as there seems to be very little out there.....certainly in the UK.

 

Feeling a tad deflated.

Changing the subject a bit.......

Don't feel bad about this sword or the debate on it. As mentioned earlier, if you really want a good one, look around.

I had a bit of a search in the UK for you, most were sold, i came across a fake advertised as genuine, but i also found one dealer with 2 genuine swords which are still available. Here are the links:

 

1-  https://www.paradeantiques.co.uk/militaria/edged-weapons/swords/wwii-Japanese-non-commissioned-officer-sword-knot?zenid=d1hn85uc9io2pdaibjltf9cks5

 

2- https://www.paradeantiques.co.uk/militaria/edged-weapons/swords/wwii-Japanese-non-commissioned-officers-sword?zenid=d1hn85uc9io2pdaibjltf9cks5

 

Have a look and if you like, contact the dealer with an offer ....you never know.

I personally feel the first one is a better example. I think the pricing is a little too high, but that's where you would come in.

Good Luck

 

 

BTW- Both swords are by the same contractor, look at the groove on each.... the higher numbered one with the unpainted handle has the same groove as the original one you looked at. It is closer in serial number range to the one you were looking at also, and the grooves are similar.....fake??? i doubt it.

Collectors should be careful not to easily dismiss something as fake if it has any variations from the accepted 'norm'

From many years of experience, i would say that if we did this every time because it's not in F&G or even Dawson's. then it would diminish the collecting field immensely.

[Stegel]

I would like to hear from Windy as to whether he's open to the idea of pulling the tsuka off for a view of the nakago.

 

The gap on the handle and fuchi might be due to a bent nakago. I have one on a ver 3 side-latch that is so bent I'm amazed it fits in the handle (pic attached).

 

Windy?

Bruce, i must say that your 'fetish' for viewing the tangs seems to be bearing fruit!!

I'm amazed at the tang you've shown....very interesting!!

i never would have had any inkling to pull mine apart! thought they were all the same.

It seems that it could be a whole new field of investigation.

Good work!

[Shamsy]

Okay, I can see this thread is wind(y)ing down (I had to do it).

 

I though I would share some of the variations rather than just stating that they exist in my previous posts. Knowing is all well and good, but better to have seen some pictures right? My only aim on the forum is to learn and educate, after all.

 

I second what Stegel has stated about the two swords he found for your consideration. The first is more original, even if the paint is rough. That it includes a tassel is a bonus. It would be a good first piece and you will learn a lot form there. The auction sword will also go far higher than you'd expect; likely a lot more than those two. It's not a good version with the scabbard repaint and loose handle either, so you'd only want to move it on later, unless you are the sentimental sort.

 

For the record this thread was never an argument for me. I find the topic exhilarating, exciting and educational. It is my main passion and hobby collecting and studying NCO's. I've very much enjoyed a rigorous debate which has really fired my interest (evident by the fact I took photos which I can rarely be bothered to do).

 

Good luck all!

[IJASWORDS]

Don't know if these help, a SUYA company logo, and a Iijima company logo swords.

[mauser99]

great discussion on a very common topic. I will come in the end and say. The sword in question I would not buy to all the points being made. Unless it was very very cheap. 400.00usd or less. 300 sounds better. I have no clue the market in the UK but, everything seems more expensive overthere.  There are so many of these out there no sense can be made over settling over a lesser example.  There are many on ebay usa and I see no reason why one cant be shipped overseas ?

Never buy anything you will have to explain when selling..  This one requires to much IMHO. Probably why it was dumped off in an auction..

[Stegel]

1-  https://www.paradeantiques.co.uk/militaria/edged-weapons/swords/wwii-Japanese-non-commissioned-officer-sword-knot?zenid=d1hn85uc9io2pdaibjltf9cks5

I went back to look at this piece a bit closer, and noticed something interesting.

If you look at the picture with the tsuba being displayed, then look at the imitation same under the ito wrap..... it is strikingly similar to the original post on this thread. Some of the nipples/nodules look raised, others give the impression of being 'punched' to quote hamfish.   (see attached pic)

This now being the 3rd such example -by the same maker, -all sharing many similarities -in a similar number range.

IMO these are not fake handles or modern reproductions, but period pieces.

 

I also noticed that this maker is not present in the sea of fakes going about. The majority are attempts at SUYA and GIFU with obviously poor stampings. I posted in another thread once, a few fakes that had very good stampings (good enough to fool the novice) but they were of the SUYA style.

Also, lately, a few of the chinese sellers are listing their swords as reproductions and 'type 95 style'. Hopefully sales are down and the tide is turning!! (but i doubt it)

[Windy]

Don't know if these help, a SUYA company logo, and a Iijima company logo swords.

The top sword in the picture has the exact shape retention clasp as the example I've been viewing, which is ever so slightly different in shape as most others.

 

The pattern of dots in the picture posted by Stegel is also very similar?

[Windy]

Well, the auction was this morning......the NCO went for £417 inc the buyers premium. At this price, I didn't get involved.

 

Throughout a lot of searches on the internet, I found one NCO that looked very very close to this, particularly the shape of the saya retention catch, the quality of the fit between the catch mechanism and the hilt, the fuchi stamps, and the 'fresh from the factory' saya. This other NCO was a modern reproduction, and clearly marketed as a repro.

 

Whilst quite a few folks beleived it's authenticity, the doubt raised by others, re the indented/punched detail inside the tsuka coupled with the above points, left me with cold feet!

 

Either way, many thanks for your input guys, all greatly received. My search continues.

 

I also have another book winging its way from Amazon.