Nco Shin Gunto - Real Or Rotter?

[Windy]

Hello, I'm after a bit of help with a Shin Gunto I'm thinking of buying. I've been trawling the net researching these Shin Guntos and came upon this site. I've found a lot of useful and interesting stuff so far.

I've been after an NCO Shin Gunto for a while, and can't make my mind up with this one. What say you guys? Cheers.

 

[IJASWORDS]

Looks OK to me. May be a bit of newer paint applied to it, but no issues with that. Gets down to the price you are happy to pay for it. I will offer no advice on price, as it boils down to what you value it at. As with all swords, if you like it, buy it. It must appeal to you. Neil.

[Stegel]

It is a genuine Type95 gunto, that is real and not a rotter!

However, the condition appears to be a bit poor. If you are not in a hurry, i recommend waiting untill you come across a nicer example.

Can you provide more pctures of the whole sword and scabbard?

 

As Neil said, it's ok if the price is right.

[Windy]

Thanks for the swift replies chaps.

Initially I was worried that the fuchi is painted, as I've seen elsewhere that this is a sign of a repro? Also the paint on the scabbard is in very good condition. I didn't check when I looked at it, but I think the loop swivels completely round the pommel base, again something I thought was a fake identifier?

 

There is a small amount of play between the blade and the hilt, is this common or a problem?

 

I've bunged a couple more pics on to look at.

 

I like the sword, and have wanted to get one for a long time. Sadly I can't yet justify the money for a genuine ancestral type blade!

 

Cheers

 

Matt

[Bruce Pennington]

Matt, the scabbard (saya) is absolutely correct! This one has some collector interest, to me, because of the black painted diamonds, if original.

 

You can decipher the fuchi stamps, yourself, here: http://ohmura-study.net/794.html

[IJASWORDS]

Here is an idea on original colours of NCO, your FUCHI is painted as indicated earlier.

Picking up on Stegels point, there are probably better examples out there, keep looking. Neil.

[Shamsy]

I'll parrot what has been said. Genuine but certain that the scabbard was repainted. The fuchi is interesting because you can clearly see a pattern of dust behind the retaining spring. The same is true around the seppa, suggesting its not been dissembled for a while, if at all. I'm not certain the fuchi was repainted (at least recently). As Bruce said, the black same is not something I've seen, but general patina suggests to me the handle was not repainted.

[Windy]

Well, thanks for all your help guys. I feel a lot better about this sword, and had begun to doubt its authenticity, given the number of fakes about.

[Windy]

Had another look today. Got a few more pics.

 

[lonely panet]

im going the other way.

 

 

IMHO it screams repro.

 

the kissaki, the exicutution of the HI, the imitation same in the tsuka is punched in, not raised, the finish if the stamps, the numbers on the blade, the habaki looks poor, the fit of the locking mech.

 

it all smells fishy.

[Windy]

Oh dear......this is a bit of a mine field it seems.

[lonely panet]

ok heres some quick pics from Jim Dawsons books on the type of details your sword is lacking.

 

remember at type 95 NCO swords a machine made and almost 100% identical to each other.

 

Note how the  HI at the Habaki and the in the kissaki are finished, as well as the lack of any gaps in the tsuka were the locking Mech is.

 

PS, sorry bout the Pics from books, as I sold all my swords so my wife can stay at home with the baby

 

[Stegel]

im going the other way.

 

 

IMHO it screams repro.

 

the kissaki, the exicutution of the HI, the imitation same in the tsuka is punched in, not raised, the finish if the stamps, the numbers on the blade, the habaki looks poor, the fit of the locking mech.

 

it all smells fishy.

Well Hamfish,

I would have to completely disagree with you about the screaming repro part.

I know what you mean and have to say initially a few years ago i thought the same, but i've seen quite a few swords since then and had changed my opinion, especially after seeing this occur in other sections of the serail number ranges.

 

There are a few sections of the serial numbers where the BoHi is applied in this way, this range with this subcontractor is one of them. (It is a lot neater in other ranges for this company's production) Seki has also produced this type of groove but only with the wooden handled pattern 5 in the 200k range.

I don't think the imitation same is punched in, but the photo is not quite clear enough to confirm.

 

The serial number application is ok and i have attached some photo\s of a sword by the same maker some 50 digits in the serial range lower. It is very similar and even appears to have a darker same like this one, but i admit the photo is not the best.

 

I also include 2 photo's of a sword which Shamsy was going to get, it is 10 digits higher but made by the Suya sub contractor and therefore is completely different.... more like what you would expect and are probably refering to.

 

IMO the sword in the original post is in poor condition, but is genuine, and if it were me i would probably wait for a nicer example to show up.

 

Cheers

 

40298 with winter camo scabbard  (SUYA

)

 

40235  similar to the OP

[Stegel]

The kissaki is not the same finish for all sub contractors.

The ones you have shown from the book are the better ones.

 

Also there are many production variations in the type95. You can also find (in a specific range) Aluminium handled swords with NO groove, and in two sections of the 200k range, Wooden handled swords WITH groove present.

[lonely panet]

look really hard at post 4, picture 2

 

and then tell me there not individually hand punched

 

and there is only one variation with a top latching, brass tsuba that was issued with the only model to have a leather buckle tassel.

evan Jim Dawson warns colletor about the high quality fakes.

 

wake up guys, if you want to waste good money this is how its done

[Bruce Pennington]

*I several posts above happened as I typed this, Thanks Stegel for the strikingly similar example

 

I admit the shape of the kissaki-end of the bo-hi is not the normal shape of a Tokyo Arsenal blade. It is rounded, which is often a tell-tale sign of a fake, however, I have a Nagoya ver 3 (side-latch) with a rounded bo-hi, so I don't know what to think about that.

 

I agree the serial number font is odd. Also, the tsuka-side seppa is unevenly shaped. The Kokura cannon balls are a bit thin, but the contractor stamp is legit looking.

 

Windy, can you get a good look at the dimpling in the diamond-shapes and tell if they are raised bumps, or are they indented? Indented dimples are another error the reproductions have.

 

Also, Windy, if you are willing, it often tells us a lot to see the nakago (tang). Some guys don't like to take NCO gunto apart because they sometimes have a little wiggle when you put them back together. I take all mine apart and have a 50/50 experience with the wiggle, but it's worth it to me to see the nakago.

 

One thing I have found studying these - there are ALWAYS exceptions and variations to the norm!!!

[Stegel]

OK Hamfish,

It appears that they're punched in certain sections, the same could be said of other photo i posted, which is in the same range.

 

 

and there is only one variation with a top latching, brass tsuba that was issued with the only model to have a leather buckle tassel.

evan Jim Dawson warns colletor about the high quality fakes.

What exactly are you referring to here??  Do you mean the handle cast itself??

[Shamsy]

Stegel is spot on here. I have several swords with hand stamping of serial numbers. Provided these are the right font there is absolutely nothing wrong with them. They're regularly wonky, half struck, shallow... it's all been discussed in other threads. Seems that early on they rolled numbers and these were deep set and uniform. Later they get rough, though the Jinsen arsenal used proper stamping equipment again, as evidenced by the regular over struck 3. They also have a completely different font again. There is absolutely zero doubt about the numbers. Fuchi stamps are fine. I've got examples of great stamps and average one's. Also, things like the Kokura cannon ball stamp is found in a variety of styles, which is easy to see in Dawson.

 

As fate would have it, that sword arrived yesterday Stegel. Thought it was a gonna.

 

You really can't judge NCOs based off such limited reference material as Dawson and F&G. They did a fantastic job of providing us SOME material from nearly none, but they have such a tiny section and sample on the NCOs. There are SO MANY valid variants. I am of the opinion the sword is original, if not the paint on parts. Having said that, I agree with Hamish on one points. The scabbard retention is not well fitted which is unusual. They're usually pretty well flush and precise, as is typical of Japanese engineering. The end of the bohi where it meets the kissaki is round. My sword does have that kissaki shaped termination. Having said that a quick check shows me that I have a Seki, Gifu and Seki side latch with rounded ends to the bohi. Not that unusual.

 

If this is a fake causing this much debate we are all in serious trouble.

[lonely panet]

forget the hand stamping, look at how clean the insides of the marks are.

 

evan un issued bayonets have grime inside the stampings.

 

all popular machine made blades are in the same area as german iron cross medals. the experts are having trouble picking them from fakes.

 

 

clearly this subject is filled with passion, of FOR and "against'

 

but I really feel like this is a doubtfull piece, and I wouldn't spend my money on this

[PNSSHOGUN]

The saya has absolutely been repainted which is alarm #1.

 

Proceed with caution.

[Stegel]

The saya has absolutely been repainted which is alarm #1.

 

Proceed with caution.

You need to be sure of exactly What kind of Alarm you think this is.

To me it rings of - beware this sword has been played with post war......... it is not a beware of a fake alarm!

The sword is produced by the Tokyo 1st Arsenal as can be seen by the stampings and orientation of serial numbers.

The scabbard is correctly stamped and is also a Tokyo 1st Arsenal variant. 

Yes it has been repainted, however, this was never a point of contention.

[Stegel]

all popular machine made blades are in the same area as german iron cross medals. the experts are having trouble picking them from fakes.

 

I'm niot sure i understand what you mean here, could you elaborate a bit ?

[PNSSHOGUN]

You need to be sure of exactly What kind of Alarm you think this is.

To me it rings of - beware this sword has been played with post war......... it is not a beware of a fake alarm!

The sword is produced by the Tokyo 1st Arsenal as can be seen by the stampings and orientation of serial numbers.

The scabbard is correctly stamped and is also a Tokyo 1st Arsenal variant. 

Yes it has been repainted, however, this was never a point of contention.

I'm not saying it is fake, I'm not an expert on NCO swords by any means. I'm of the opinion if there is any suspicion in a sword, stay away.

 

[Shamsy]

That's not an unreasonable sentiment John, not to mention Neil sums up the general concensus it's not the best example anyway.

[lonely panet]

im saying its a very good fake, look at the fit between the tsuka and the locking mech and the tsuba and the habaki.

 

REPRO FAKE.

 

how many type 95 ncos have you seen with a inscribed sukura on the kabuto gane ????

 

they are all raised, not cut inn.

 

I cant believe the debate has gone this far with out others not pointing all the obvious differences ??? 

 

I collected IJA swords for about 15 years and the only swords I didn't have was a GENSUITO, MINATOWGA shrine sword and a GENERALS GRADE KYU GUNTO.

 

so thats about 30-45 types of swords and versions I did have and study. so im not just making s**t up or being difficult for the point of it.

 

IMHO this is a untrustworthy sword, not real, made after 1945

 

but hey what would I know, :dunno:is this sword from ebay

[Shamsy]

I actually think that is an optical illusion. When I first looked I agree; it appeared to be indentations. Then after about ten seconds I saw them as raised. The black colour does not help. While no one doubts you have plenty of experience, do you think the people who disagree have only seen a couple of NCOs and been collecting one or two years? It's all well and good to say 'I've been collecting this long', but so have others (longer and more specifically NCOs in fact). I do genuinely mean this with respect, I just don't think you can dismiss other opinions on that basis.

 

So far, IMHO, the only points that have not been credibly disproven are the possibility the same is indented (though I think that's a trick of the eyes). The serial number match the range for the style, fuchi stamps are fine, handle patina all good, signs of age, the loose lock is probably from disassembly (which is why the handle is loose), the termination of the bohi is not unusual shape merely one of a couple used, I think the serial number being clean really proves nothing (it also is probably just a result of the flash on steel), all the details of the sword (correct orientation, scabbard type etc) are good and finally yes, no one ever doubted the scabbard was a repaint!

 

It's good to discuss and debate. Ultimately we are all unlikely to change our opinions as is so often the way of the Internet, but it's a good learning experience anyway. Perhaps when we hear if the casting is indented or raised we will be in a better position to reach a determination.

[Bruce Pennington]

I would like to hear from Windy as to whether he's open to the idea of pulling the tsuka off for a view of the nakago.

 

The gap on the handle and fuchi might be due to a bent nakago. I have one on a ver 3 side-latch that is so bent I'm amazed it fits in the handle (pic attached).

 

Windy?

[paul griff]

Hello Windy,

Just got in after a busy week otherwise would have replied earlier and advised you to stay clear....It's a copy...one of the better ones but still a copy....Seen it on the saleroom.com...! Most of the pointers have been highlighted so I won't rattle on too much,but : says throat is wrong,numbers are wrong,no definition to acceptance marks and a terribly fitted and poorly casted hilt and awful paint job..... On the plus side it's good to have a fake closely at hand so you can learn and compare when you get real ones.....Nearly everyone's been ' tucked up ' at some point...part of the learning curve..!

Regards,

Paul...

[Windy]

Thanks to everyone that had contributed, all good learning points for the uninitiated. It's been fascinating taking in all the points raised.

 

For those that have asked, the NCO in question isn't mine, its in an upcoming auction. So I'm not in a position to remove the tsuka to view the nakago. I'm of the opinion it has been removed at some point, as there is a little play between the tsuka and the nakago.

 

I took another look at it this afternoon, to investigate some of the outstanding issues.

 

The serial number, there is grime within the indentations of the numbers, maybe the lighting has subdued this?

 

The dots within the diamonds on the tsuka, well I have to say they aren't clearly indented or raised. They are indented around the outside and raised within the centre.....like a kind of 'W' shape if you viewed in a basic cross section. I suppose if you had to call it, they are indented if the alternative is very positively raised?

 

I'm not too sure now guys, even though this example of an NCO was described as not great, I was hoping that I might be able to take my first step on the collectors ladder (If the money was sensible). My wait might now go on some time, as there seems to be very little out there.....certainly in the UK.

 

Feeling a tad deflated.

[Shamsy]

So I'm not in a position to remove the tsuka to view the nakago. I'm of the opinion it has been removed at some point, as there is a little play between the tsuka and the nakago.

I took another look at it this afternoon, to investigate some of the outstanding issues.

The serial number, there is grime within the indentations of the numbers, maybe the lighting has subdued this?

The dots within the diamonds on the tsuka, well I have to say they aren't clearly indented or raised. They are indented around the outside and raised within the centre.....like a kind of 'W' shape if you viewed in a basic cross section.

These were two points of contention but it sounds as though the answers fall squarely within the genuine camp? I admit I'm not exactly sure what you mean on the dots Windy, but the fact that you say they are raised in my mind refutes the main sticking point of the against argument.

 

Hello Windy,

Just got in after a busy week otherwise would have replied earlier and advised you to stay clear....It's a copy...one of the better ones but still a copy....Seen it on the saleroom.com...! Most of the pointers have been highlighted so I won't rattle on too much,but : says throat is wrong,numbers are wrong,no definition to acceptance marks and a terribly fitted and poorly casted hilt and awful paint job..... On the plus side it's good to have a fake closely at hand so you can learn and compare when you get real ones.....Nearly everyone's been ' tucked up ' at some point...part of the learning curve..!

Regards,

Paul...

The saya throat with the brass ring is absolutely correct and visible in Wind's first post?

Numbers are absolutely correct and match multiple examples on numerous other swords?? Even Dawson mentions that some are shallow, some deep. This was recently discussed in some detail in the thread Bruce raised for his pattern 4 (side lock aluminum ).

Examples abound of shallow and slightly off struck fuchi stamps, not to mention variations. That's not a valid sign of a fake at all. The paint wont help. Typically fakes have the wrong symbol, order or fonts (though fonts legitimately vary and there is at least one example of a copper handle with the stamps in the wrong order!

Addressing the fit, considering it has been disassembled, not surprising! It wasn't put together correctly. Rattle is not uncommon when the wooden tsuka lining shrinks.

The quality of tsuka casting decreased over time. I was also dependant on the manufacturer. There are also several different wraps and hilt variations. This one looks spot on.

 

But this has already been said before. With some pretty good evidence I thought. Time to make out own assessment.