About 2 Habaki

[SalaMarcos]

Dear all members,

 

I found this 2 habaki, and I never saw it before, some ideas about it? anyone saw it before?

 

The one with the bori of plants seems like some Nobuie work... but I don't think could be related.

 

Thank you very much.

 

 

[SAS]

First one reminds me of stag antler or the surface of a stone;  i like it.

[SwordGuyJoe]

I've seen a style similar to the first once on a gendaito that I owned. I can't remember for the life of me who did the sword, but that was the only one in that style that I had seen. I've seen similar "fancy" patterns to the latter on shinshinto pieces that people wanted to dress up.

 

Regardless, the habaki is a good first indicator of quality. A irregular, more expensive habaki, indicates a higher value sword or at least a sword that was more valuable to the individual that purchased the habaki. Then again, there are always those that pay a little more for a habaki on questionable swords to take advantage of a person who may place too much weight into my statement.

[Jimmy R]

Can you post a picture of the top one from the bottom please. That is very interesting. Also, a nice habaki is not an indicator of anything except how much the customer had to spend on a habaki.

[SwordGuyJoe]

Okay Jimmy. Whatever you say :-|

 

Let me expound Jimmy. Does a nice habaki mean that it's a juyo blade? No. That being said, a plane copper habaki or even wooden, is the cheapest way to go for a habaki. Would someone cut costs on a nice sword and purchase one of those when restoring a blade (regardless of the era that a blade was restored)? Of course. I'm not positive, but I'd be willing to bet there are some Juyo or maybe even TJ blades with cheap habaki.

 

Now can a person put a fancy habaki on a kazuuchimono, showato, etc.? Of course they could. But it's just not as likely. It's less likely - IMO (and others that I know, but will not mention). Why would someone go out of there way to spend the additional money to buy an upgraded habaki in that situation? Maybe they don't know it's a low quality sword. Maybe it is a family heirloom and the sword's personal value is higher than the financial value. Sure, I agree with that. What I'm saying is that when you see an upgraded habaki, someone at some time put a higher level of value on the sword.

 

The sword always does the talking and anyone who buys a sword strictly based on a habaki is a fool. Much like the fool that ignores any indicator of quality when buying a sword. Some blades that are out of polish have little to be gleaned from looking at them and an upgraded habaki is one (of a hundred) indicators that a sword may be of better than average quality.

 

Anyhow - I apologize for not expounding more. I hope this explanation is detailed enough for people to understand why they shouldn't ignore a habaki and think of it as a worthless point when examining a sword - especially one that is out of polish.

[Jimmy R]

Okay Jimmy. Whatever you say :-|

Your argument is powerful. I can see your point now.

[Greg F]

I have a brass kashira that has a very similar patern that would go very well with the second habaki. Will see if i can get a pic up soon.

 

Greg

[SwordGuyJoe]

Your argument is powerful. I can see your point now.

I updated it because I figured you were drooling for more information about habaki quality and their relative relationship to sword quality.

 

I thought it a rudimentary point and underestimated that some people may not either agree or think in the same vein. That's my fault. i should've explained more to help give the "why" behind my statement. Much like a top notch koshirae is seldom found attached to an average sword. Not never, but seldom. Like I said, we as collectors need to gravitate to inspecting all elements of a sword when evaluating them. Some swords will have hundreds of things to see. Some will have two. It's in our best interest - IMO - to know and pay attention to all of them.

[Jimmy R]

Those sorts of generalizations are very misleading. First you posit that good habaki is indicative of a good sword, now you say the same thing about koshirae? For any beginning collector reading this thread, do not EVER pay attention to such generalizations. Each aspect of Nihonto and its various accoutrement should be taken on their own.

[SwordGuyJoe]

Wow. We're vigorously debating habaki. Fun...

 

Koshirae, tsuba, menuki, fuchi, kashira, hada, hamon, length, mei, yasurime, hataraki, boshi, and yes, even the lowly habaki are all ways to look at the value or potential value of a sword. This is not a generalization. This is my opinion. If you disagree with that opinion, that's cool. If anyone else disagrees, that's cool too. I urge the new collector to pay attention to the patterns that they see while viewing swords online or at a show. My experience - not general experience, specific experience - is what builds my opinion. Maybe I just saw different swords then you Jimmy. That's cool too. My experience is that the only generalization that I've read on this page is that a habaki is only indicative of what a customer paid for a habaki.

 

All rules in Nihonto are made to be broken. You could have an amazing koshirae, with a beautiful habaki, all attached to a crap sword. That's why no one item in the list that I put together (again, to further a habaki debate...) is meant to be a silver bullet quality answer, nor - in my opinion - should any one be ignored.

 

I can't believe this is an argument... but if it were a competition, my generalizations are WAY better than yours Jimmy!

[Jimmy R]

Maybe look up the word generalization. Then get back to me.

[SwordGuyJoe]

Huh. Well I'm the guy with the sense of humor. You must be the other guy.

 

I think I'm good not looking up the word. I have a grasp of what the word means Jimmy. There are many generalization that can serve as a starting point in purchasing sword: buy from a trusted dealer, only buy in polish blade so you can study and learn, make sure there are papers for big name smiths if you don't know what you're buying, don't trust kicho papers, read before buying a sword, etc. Generalizations all of them, but good advice in the opinion of the people giving the advice. New collectors and old can take the advice/opinion based on exerience, or they can leave it.

 

In your generalized opinion, the habaki is nothing but an indicator of what the customer was willing for the habaki. In my generalized opinion (with about a dozen caveats indicating don't look at any ONE thing, but observe ALL things that can be observed), I believe that an above average can - but does not always - indicate that the blade may - but isn't always - inline with the quality of the habaki. We both have opinions and apparently they're at odds with one another. You want to warn new collectors off of mine, that's fine. I'd warn them off of yours. That's fine too.

 

Either way, I don't really care whether you agree with me, nor do I really have any interest in convincing you of my opinion.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hello, 

 

First habaki, have not seen this exact pattern before, represents moss (koke) growing on a surface. 

[Jean]

Habaki has been discussed already and the general opinion is mitigated concerning their implication in the blade quality.

 

My opinion is the following: the collector who is willing to buy a blade on its habaki quality has better started a habaki collection

[SalaMarcos]

Dear all,

 

Thank you for all your replies.

 

About the first one, is from a tantô, maybe the artista from the tsuba is the same of the habaki?

 

 

 

The second one is from a sword Bizen Osafune Sukemitsu and a koshirae with a Hikone Sôten tsuba, very cool koshirae.

Maybe the tsubakô kinkô who made the rest of the koshirae made also the habaki? maybe...

 

And this is 2 more fancy habaki I checked:

First, from a tantô,  no idea about school,

 

the second is from one of the best pieces I checked in my hands, a Mino work.

[Guido]

I would be surprised if a habaki was made by the same craftsman as the tsuba or other fittings - they are usually done by specialists, the shirogane-shi 白銀師.

 

Anyhow, here's my take on the habaki posted:

[Ray Singer]

Another example of a karakusa-bori habaki (mixed with botan yasuri-mei).

 

http://yakiba.com/Tanto_Nobukuni.htm

[Brian]

Much the same as I look closer at a sword if it has well cut hi...I will always look carefully at a sword with an excellent habaki and/or fittings made for it.
It's logical, and debating that is pointless imho.
Doesn't mean there aren't exceptions, but nothing wrong with something making you look closer at a potential find. Someone spent considerable money, and you have to consider the likelyhood that they did it on a poor blade.
Everyone welcome to their own opinions.

[SwordGuyJoe]

The botan yujo is my favorite and when I commissioned a sword of mine to be polished, I paid the extra money for the nice habaki. The sword was worth it!

 

 

[Curran]

I would be surprised if a habaki was made by the same craftsman as the tsuba or other fittings - they are usually done by specialists, the shirogane-shi 白銀師.

 

 

Generally true, but sometimes they did. This habaki looks like it will go for the price of a nice sword.

http://page11.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/n197017175

 

Haynes 09786.0

My mind can only wonder what sort of blade it was stripped from.

 

The Umetada group also made habaki. Very very good ones.

[SalaMarcos]

I would be surprised if a habaki was made by the same craftsman as the tsuba or other fittings - they are usually done by specialists, the shirogane-shi 白銀師.

 

Anyhow, here's my take on the habaki posted:

 

I'm really impressed with this information. Thank you very much.

It's difficult to find books about habaki, almost all tôsôgu books never talk about it.

Except this website I don't have idea where to find sources. Could you give me an advice about any specific book?

 

Thanks again!

[SwordGuyJoe]

...My mind can only wonder what sort of blade it was stripped from...

Probably nothing special

[Kronos]

Speaking of Habaki, this is my favourite I've seen:

 

 

Once I find the right sword that's worth getting a new koshirae made I'm going to commission one very similar to it. From what I recall the sword it was on just looked like a o-suriage mumei shinto but with very nice fittings. It sold for quite a lot (around £6k iirc) so maybe i'm missed something. Would love to find out what it actually was.

[ROKUJURO]

Marcos,

for your information: 

[Guido]

Could you give me an advice about any specific book?

 

As far as I know, there's no book in English about habaki, and even no Japanese one dedicated only to this craft.

[Mark]

 I agree with Joe and Brian.  Will i buy a sword because of the habaki NO.  But if i see a sword with a special or high quality habaki i will give the blade a second look.

 

Here are some pictures of a habaki on a sword i own, i like the special work. We discussed it a while back

[SalaMarcos]

Marcos,

 

for your information: 

 

Thank you very much!