vajo Posted January 7, 2017 Report Posted January 7, 2017 I'm in a trade between another german collector. He offers me a Fuchi / Kashira set that seems the same as one on nihontocraft. Did the artists make copys from a piece? Hope someone can help. Left one is the offer from a private collector. Right is from Nihontocraft. The Fuchi with a catfish looks also identic. Here is a picture i took both together to compare. Regards Chris Quote
Fuuten Posted January 7, 2017 Report Posted January 7, 2017 Identical. Sure they (artists or schools), made more of the same designs. Look nice too. 1 Quote
vajo Posted January 7, 2017 Author Report Posted January 7, 2017 Thank you Axel. Great help. Chris Quote
Brian Posted January 7, 2017 Report Posted January 7, 2017 Designs were not unique. They had "pattern books" and made hundreds of the same item. This was a commercial enterprize, they had to make what sells.You will find many examples of the same design when you study swords. Very few designs were unique. 1 Quote
vajo Posted January 7, 2017 Author Report Posted January 7, 2017 Thank you Brian. I was wondering because all the little details are identical, Like scratches and little holes. I thougt that the designs must look like the same but different in thier detail. So i learned now that they made perferct copys from on piece. Quote
Tanto54 Posted January 7, 2017 Report Posted January 7, 2017 Dear Chris, I think there's a good chance it's the same piece. We've seen this before, slightly different cameras and angles make it look a little different, but the scratches, dents, etc. are too similar. 2 Quote
Fuuten Posted January 7, 2017 Report Posted January 7, 2017 Pretty sure those 2 are not the same pieces photographed in different times. Pretty sure they are not exactly identical, and simply 2 pieces with the same design. 1 Quote
Tanto54 Posted January 7, 2017 Report Posted January 7, 2017 Dear Axel, Please look closely at the pictures. Look at the dents and flaws - they are the same in both pictures (see below). Therefore, it must either be the same piece (or they are cast from the same mold). If they are different, then please point out a feature or flaw that is different. 1 Quote
vajo Posted January 7, 2017 Author Report Posted January 7, 2017 I was taking a deep look on the pictures. There are many similarity but i found some differences. Look on the end of the tail. Or the claws. The dents and scares have different sizes and lenght on both pieces. The question is which one is genuine Or are they both are original pieces of a nara master. Quote
Fuuten Posted January 7, 2017 Report Posted January 7, 2017 Dear Axel, Please look closely at the pictures. Look at the dents and flaws - they are the same in both pictures (see below). Therefore, it must either be the same piece (or they are cast from the same mold). If they are different, then please point out a feature or flaw that is different. Turtle.jpg Really the things labelled in the picture, what is labelled as dents and a mistake would seem to me to be part of the design. Where i see differences is for instance in the length of the 3 vertical strokes on the bottom. Quote
Geraint Posted January 7, 2017 Report Posted January 7, 2017 Dear Chris. If you browse auction catalogues for long enough you will come across quite a number of standard designs, sometimes apparently identical but attributed to different schools just to be confusing. As Brian has said this is not uncommon. It is always nice to think that you have a unique work of art but that isn't the reality in many cases. It may of course be that your friend purchased this set from NIhontocraft or they might have come from another source entirely. If you have been looking at Nara work what about this set leads you to the conclusion that they are by a Nara master? Have a look at this kodzuka and see what you think. http://www.toukenkomachi.com/image/B021016-2.jpg The price of the set on Nihontocraft and the fact that they were identified as, "Nara school" should be considered. Have fun. Quote
nagamaki - Franco Posted January 7, 2017 Report Posted January 7, 2017 Hello, Pardon, perhaps I'm a bit confused, but I do not currently see this turtle set for sale at nihontocraft.com, and if so, why wouldn't it be possible for this to be the same set? And, why not simply ask the German collector offering the trade if they came from Danny? 2 Quote
vajo Posted January 7, 2017 Author Report Posted January 7, 2017 I think it's Nara school yes. The Kozuka you show is a Masterpiece of course. My intention was not that these set is a Masterpiece. But from a Artist who work in Nara style? http://www.nihontocraft.com/Nara_Fuchi_Kashira.html The set is available at Nihontocraft. Good question, i must ask him Quote
Stephen Posted January 7, 2017 Report Posted January 7, 2017 NO its not just came up in your search, seems he dont take em down Quote
Tanto54 Posted January 7, 2017 Report Posted January 7, 2017 Dear Chris, The points that you compare are actually exactly the same (just slightly different camera perspectives and glare). Axel, the "three vertical strokes" at the bottom that you mentioned are also exactly the same. You can lead a horse to water.... Quote
Greg F Posted January 8, 2017 Report Posted January 8, 2017 This is a tough one but im leaning towards a very intricately copied piece but definitely not certain. I think we need Sensei Fords opinion! Greg Quote
Tanto54 Posted January 8, 2017 Report Posted January 8, 2017 As I mentioned to Chris in a PM. Why doesn't he just post pictures of the Fuchi? Surely his German Collector friend has sent him pictures of the Fuchi too. The one from Nihontocraft has distinctive staining/patina on the Tenjogane and scratches that would settle whether it was the same set or not. I believe that the answer is clear - there are many "defects" that are the same in both pictures, and I cannot see any differences (when accounting for camera perspective and glare). I've provided one example below (please look back at the original pictures because these have lost some quality in processing). Even if one was a "faithful" copy of the other, the artist would not copy a dent (unless it was a very famous piece, which this is not...) The inlayed turtles could be cast from the same mold (thus explaining the identical flaws), but the main part of the Kashira does not appear to be cast so a duplicate dent means its the same piece in different photos (no Alex, a dent is not part of the "design"). I hope that none of you who believe these are different pieces work for law enforcement CSI teams.... Quote
vajo Posted January 8, 2017 Author Report Posted January 8, 2017 George Please. I didn't have that pieces in hand. I had only some phones with him and emails. And i want buy some pieces more from him. So please wait. That is all i have and the picture above. If you go to google and give turtle fuchi in the picture search you will find that from nihontocraft 4th row, first picture... (I do this with every piece i buy to see what it is and where it possible come from) The price i pay is near that from nihontocraft. Quote
Pete Klein Posted January 8, 2017 Report Posted January 8, 2017 I just did a Google search for 'Nara Fuchi Kashira' => images and found the one being shown, clicked the link and found the nihontocraft.com page. What I believe we're seeing is a cloud saved screen image such as one would find on the waybackmachine. It's no longer on his sales page so must have been sold, possibly to your friend. It looks identicle to me. I do a considerable amount of research and have this happen all the time. Find an image via Google, go to the page and it's no longer there. It's just archived information, which BTW can be nice to be able to find. 1 Quote
vajo Posted January 8, 2017 Author Report Posted January 8, 2017 No Pete. It is not a cloud saved screen. Look at the webadress. It is www.nihontocraft.com/... The site exists on the nihontocraft website. Quote
Pete Klein Posted January 8, 2017 Report Posted January 8, 2017 Then write Danny Massey and find out. Quote
vajo Posted January 8, 2017 Author Report Posted January 8, 2017 Why I? Read my first posting. I only wanted a opinion if that set could be a copy or cast or genuine. Thats why i ask if the artists make copys from a piece. All the other things came from the discussion. Not from me. Quote
Brian Posted January 8, 2017 Report Posted January 8, 2017 Yes...artists make many of the same item, often. Probably the same one...if not, doesn't matter as it is basically the same. Not like there is only one of them out there.As Pete said, if you want to know if it is the same one 100%, ask Danny who he sold it to. But irrelevant really. It's real, and the same or similar. 2 Quote
Tanto54 Posted January 8, 2017 Report Posted January 8, 2017 Dear Chris, I was trying to help answer your question. If it is not the same piece, then at least one of the two sets is almost definitely cast (duplicate flaws like this would indicated vulcanized mold casting). In this case, I'm sure it is the same piece (and a comparison of the Fuchi that you finally posted confirms it - and the identical defects on the Kashira look original instead of "cast"), so we cannot draw conclusions about casting from that. Based on the pictures, I do not believe that the Fugashira is cast as a whole (although the inlaid turtle does have some aspects that could point to casting, but I can't tell for sure from the photos - but I do not believe that it is cast either). Quote
vajo Posted January 13, 2017 Author Report Posted January 13, 2017 The secret is solved now. This piece comes from Nihontocraft. Its not a copy and not cast. Thanks to all who take part in this thread. The F/K looks incredible a very nice set. Quote
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