Seki Inspection Tag On Combat Saya.

[PNSSHOGUN]

I'll get some photos when it arrives, I saw it and remembered this thread and had a go, sometimes you do get lucky on ebay.

[Dave R]

On the cover is unusual, almost always stuck to the saya under the throat. Maybe they forgot to stick it on until after the leather was applied...

Or perhaps it's the cover that was inspected. The saya underneath looks to be an old (Edo) one.

[Shamsy]

Very nice catch John! My combat cover is tatters, but the sticker underneath is pretty minty too. Glad you went back to this thread to keep the info compiled.

[Dr Fox]

The thought I have, is that should one come across a sword as this, with poorly cast fittings, and a poor blade to match.

And not having the benefit of the exposure given here.

Is that these poor relatives to better examples, could be passed as Chinese, and as a consequence be ignored, as not having any importance what so ever.

[Bruce Pennington]

Or perhaps it's the cover that was inspected. The saya underneath looks to be an old (Edo) one.

That's an interesting thought, Dave. If the saya were old, but it was the leather cover being made for the war, then it would be the cover that would need inspecting, as to it's meeting wartime regulations/standards.

[PNSSHOGUN]

The thought I have, is that should one come across a sword as this, with poorly cast fittings, and a poor blade to match.

And not having the benefit of the exposure given here.

Is that these poor relatives to better examples, could be passed as Chinese, and as a consequence be ignored, as not having any importance what so ever.

I don't know about chinese fakes but they certainly aren't as good looking or desired among collectors, I don't of anyone purposefully seeking out this pattern to collect. They just seem to be either what you get with the blade or cheaper than a comparative Type 98. They seem to have been popular among the troops looking for simple, practical yet robust and lightweight mountings for combat use.

 

Not to mention lighter on the officers wallet....

[Dave R]

You get the same thing in British military swords in the 19th C.. There is the formal dress scabbard and the field scabbard. Below are two 1845 pattern  officers swords, one in a steel dress scabbard, the other in a wood and  leather field scabbard, which would go into the Sam-Brown equipment. The field scabbard is lighter, but also better for keeping the edge sharp.

[PNSSHOGUN]

A few pictures of the stamp. Koshirae is in really good condition, the Ito is still rock solid.

 

[Dave R]

 Is that the original sword knot?

[PNSSHOGUN]

I wish, a koshirae with field grade tassel for $200 would be a very good deal.

[Bruce Pennington]

On 12/6/2016 at 1:36 PM, IJASWORDS said:

Hi Bruce, found this logo under a leather combat cover, in a gold foil finish. Looks like concentric circles with a "H" or "I" in the centre. Any ideas? Neil.

Neil,

Any chance of finding out if there is a dated blade in this?  Or does it have the large Seki stamp on the blade?

[IJASWORDS]

Bruce, this saya housed an old family blade, and is an old saya, as evidenced by the remnants of its original KURIKATA.

To me, I suspect that the SEKI company also did re-mounts of old swords and mounts into gunto. This has a leather combat cover, which luckily preserved the foil label. Hope this helps.   

[Bruce Pennington]

28 minutes ago, IJASWORDS said:

Bruce, this saya housed an old family blade, and is an old saya, as evidenced by the remnants of its original KURIKATA.

To me, I suspect that the SEKI company also did re-mounts of old swords and mounts into gunto. This has a leather combat cover, which luckily preserved the foil label. Hope this helps.   

Yes, thanks Neil.  The labels are turning out to be more varied in their use than I first thought.  Some are on gunto with Seki-made blades, but some, like yours, have something else entirely in them, and maybe the label is more for "finished gunto product" type of meaning.  Some are on 1942 gunto, and some are on late war gunto like @Shamsy posted.  So, my original idea that they were used in the last couple of years to replace blade stamping is out the window too.

[sbf]

Over the years I have owned swords with both the foil and paper labels on gunto swords. All of them were Seki showato. Perhaps the foil label as on Neil’s older blade was a retailer’s label.

 

Steve

[Kiipu]

On 12/6/2016 at 12:36 PM, IJASWORDS said:

Looks like concentric circles with a "H" or "I" in the centre. Any ideas?

 

The concentric circles are the katakana characters セ and キ, one over the other.  The セ is at the top and the キ is at the bottom.  The kanji character in the middle is 工.  This is more than likely the logo of 関刃物工業組合 [The Seki Cutlery Manufacturers' Society].

 

There is another logo that is similar and one can more clearly see the katakana characters over one another.

Arsenal Stamps., Post #100

 

Edit: Post #4 partially answered the question.

[Kiipu]

Link to another gold label.

https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/w443641699

[Stephen]

Pretty sure it was added.  Gold labels are always on saya which for the most part black lacquer.

The gold stamp is from sword shops.

The blue from seki cuttlery co.

[Bruce Pennington]

Added by who though? I would be really surprised if these could be peeled off, postwar, and applied somewhere else.

 

[Kiipu]

The blue and gold labels both have the same logo and name on them.  Both labels have the name spelled from right to left.  The labels can show up on either a scabbard or a scabbard cover.  Both labels are overwritten or overstamped, either with a person's name or date stamp. 

関 = Seki.

刃物 =Hamono = Cutlery.

工業 = Kōgyō = Manufacturers'.

組合 = Kumiai = Society.

 

As far as I know, the association was established in 1931.

岐阜県関市における刃物産業の歴史的な発展過程

[Kiipu]

With the help of BangBangSan, I have transcribed the kanji characters that appear on the blue label.  On the label, the characters are written from right to left.  However, below I have reversed the order to left to right.  I have used the translations that appear on the blue label.  The characters 檢査證 translates as "inspection certificate" while the label uses "Passed."  There are minor differences in the appearance of the characters between the various blue labels indicating different printings.  Keep in mind that these labels are frequently overstamped or written upon by the various inspectors.

関刃物工業組合 = Seki hamono kōgyō kumiai = The Seki Cutlery Manufacturers’ Society.

岐阜縣関町 = Gifu-ken Seki-chō = Seki, Gifuken, Japan.

檢査證 = kensa-shō = Passed.

 

Old to new character conversions.

縣 = 県.

檢 = 検.

證 = 証.

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, Kiipu said:

With the help of BangBangSan, I have transcribed the kanji characters that appear on the blue label.

Great work guys! 

[Kiipu]

The kanji characters on the gold label are the same as the blue label with the addition of one more character.  It also reads from right to left and consists of three rows of characters.  The kanji characters displayed below are as they appear on the label, and should be read from right to left.   Same as the blue label, they are frequently overstamped and in some cases dated.  At least one label is entirely silver from the gold coloring being rubbed or cleaned off.  In my opinion, and it is no more than that, the gold label succeeded the blue one.

票證査檢 = kensa shōhyō = inspection voucher.

合組業工物刃関 = Seki hamono kōgyō kumiai.

町関縣阜岐 = Gifu-ken Seki-chō.

[Kiipu]

On 3/30/2021 at 4:44 PM, Kiipu said:

As far as I know, the association was established in 1931.

岐阜県関市における刃物産業の歴史的な発展過程

 

Ohmura san has a write-up about the establishment of the Seki hamono kōgyō kumiai 関刃物工業組合.  He states it was established on 1931-06-15.  The discussion is at the top of the page under the heading of 関刃物工業組合.  No English translation is provided though.

関・軍用日本刀 Syōwa-tō of Seki

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, Kiipu said:

 

Ohmura san has a write-up about the establishment of the Seki hamono kōgyō kumiai 関刃物工業組合.  He states it was established on 1931-06-15.  The discussion is at the top of the page under the heading of 関刃物工業組合.  No English translation is provided though.

関・軍用日本刀 Syōwa-tō of Seki

Lots of useful info on that page that can be found, in spite of Google translation errors.  One section seems to re-state the info we've discovered from the Seki City website.  They must have used the same source.

 

He mentions 4 organizations that I hope to probe a bit more, but essentially, the Seki sword industry was learning to make swords faster and doubled their production ability over time.  Thomas found a line in Ohmura's discussion that seems to indicate not all blades were inspected, which could mean that gendaito weren't inspected, just showato.

 

The only thing I still wonder about is his claim that the Showa stamp came about when the Army (Nagoya Army Arsenal) started using the Seki stamp.  Because, the survey data currently indicates just the opposite.

[Kiipu]

4 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

The only thing I still wonder about is his claim that the Showa stamp came about when the Army (Nagoya Army Arsenal) started using the Seki stamp.  Because, the survey data currently indicates just the opposite.

 

There is a lot of useful information on that webpage of which some is not yet translated.  I used this webpage as a guide for breaking down the non-military stamps which was discussed in the "Arsenal Stamps." thread.  I agree that there is some confusion in regards to the chronology of the stamps and that the 桜に昭 predates the 関.  As you are aware, NIck is currently looking into this matter.

[Kiipu]

45 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

One section seems to re-state the info we've discovered from the Seki City website.  They must have used the same source.

 

Possibly so as Ohmura san states the information is coming from the City of Seki.

(資料ご提供: 関市役所商工観光課桜田様)

[Bruce Pennington]

Another gold label.  Late-war fittings - black painted wood saya, leather covered.  On Warrelics Thread.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Another one posted by @Eds HERE on a kaigunto:

 

[Bruce Pennington]

I wish we knew more about the Seki Cutlery Manufacturers Association.  They had stamps for blades and labels for fittings (or was it for the whole completed rig?).  To back up Neil's - @IJASWORDS - point, this rig highlights that the stickers are not relegated to low quality, late-war gunto.  Here is an Edo/Kanbun era, Kiku bearing, Kanemichi blade in wooden saya and leather cover.  This one has the label on the leather drag!!! and inside on the saya itself.  Found on this Wehrmacht-awards Thread, posted by Bob C.  Scroll through to the second page to get the rest of the photos and discussion.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Cleanest, most intact version of the blue Seki label I've ever come across.  For sale by Old City Auctions HERE.  

 

 

Don't have the smith name figured out.  Any help?