Interesting

[Jean]

http://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashi-sagami-kami-fujiwara-masatsune

 

When did the hagire happened or Did the sword was certified with the hagire?

[vajo]

I see in the pictures no hagire. Must be happened later.

[Lee Bray]

The hagire can be seen in the sugata picture.

I'm guessing it papered when in poor polish so the hagire wasn't visible, then a new polish revealed it.

[Shugyosha]

Hi Chris,

 

Have a look at the photograph with the oshigata. I couldn't see it in the first picture.

 

Maybe the blade passed shinsa before polish and the hagire was either revealed in or caused by the polishing process?

[Shugyosha]

Sorry Lee, you beat me to it.

[vajo]

Ah yes. I found it. 

Thanks.

[Stephen]

Good to have up so newbies learn what to look for, it jumps right out as you scroll up the blade, 

 

[custodian]

Stephen, I think I see what you are refering to - trying to learn 'seeing'.  I hadn't gotten to that part of this topic, yet, when I saw what I thought was the hagire.  What I thought I found to be it, I circled here (last view).  What would that be, or is it anything?

 

 

Hmmm, that didn't work - sorry.  You can see it much better on their photo.

[Stephen]

You wont see it in that set click on the pix i posted it will enlarge start at the kissaki and work your way down, it can be seen on both sides coming off the ha, ill let you find it so you can train your eyes. 

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Let see if I'm still able to cover me of shame the same way as the good old days... :-)

 

PS the spoiler doesn't work for pics (or I'm not able to use it). So if anybody prefer to search without seeing what I believe to have found please don't enlarge the following picture.

[Stephen]

well well i hope he doesnt cheat and look at yours CGT, the pix i posted if clicked it will be seen....whatever

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

It's a good pic, hagire is clear even without magnification. If I'm right...

[custodian]

You wont see it in that set click on the pix i posted it will enlarge start at the kissaki and work your way down, it can be seen on both sides coming off the ha, ill let you find it so you can train your eyes. 

 

Hello Stephen,

 

Yes, I saw it in your post, but I thought, first time through, it just activity, as it is similar to other areas further back on the blade.  I saw the dark line in the hamon - I hope this will show what I thought it might be better.  I guess it is just a part of the process.

 

[christianmalterre]

a "hagire" is a big word....

by chance, such does happen least in earlier times, very common...not?

 

rather a specific "weak point" ....i´d dare to call it.

(and yepp Jean-  ) bu???- He???

nor it will survive the market- nor the quality so to survive this game....least not here.)

 

do decide yourssself please.- the blade "offerd" yesterday for insight did for shure "throw" my nerves to a certain more "sceptic" indeed .....so far...

hmmmph....

Lucky! well! those who do.....

 

me

[Stephen]

Wow Christian thats a hard one.

[christianmalterre]

not hard Stephen!

just honest!

 

still do not understand this all "behaviour" in back...?

 

either art!

or nothing to ben worth to collect!

 

(do we both old men do get a certain agreement?)

 

(Laugh!)

(you are right of course!!!! Steph.!- no discussion further!  !)...either no further comment from mine part!)

received- Impact.

Christian

[vajo]

One question from a rookie.

I thought hagire must run out of the hamon to be a lost sword.

 

 

I cover and run... 

[Stephen]

yes you found it Chris S.

[Stephen]

Christian my brother i thought over time i could translate your messages, alas i still have much to learn.... 

[John A Stuart]

Yajo, the fatality is it running off the ha through the thickness. John

[Kronos]

Let me attempt to translate Christian, I believe he's saying it's either art or not worth collecting and the hagire being a fatal flaw means it is no longer worth collecting. So it won't survive the market and the quality isn't good enough that it would retain value not being a national treasure or some such that even with hagire would retain value.

 

I reserve the right to be wrong in my translation.

[vajo]

John, than it looks not fatal for me.

It is a nice sword. If the price fits i would take it :-) collecting worth or not.

 

For me the time decide what is collectible or not. Look at the prices for worthless NCO swords. A lot of people pay a lot of money for it.

[Stefan]

In  such case : Form  followos function. If the  function is nearly zero, the  asthetic is mostly the same. This Blade is Shinto......

In the case of Kamakura, well it could be of historical significance, even with hagire.

Is this  blade important ?

 

By the way, a hagire is never the result of correct  polishing techniques. Even  in tatsu o tsuku the blade is not pressed so hard on the stone.

[Jean]

The question is: can NBTHK certify a blade with a hagire, despite its criteria?

[J Reid]

The NTHK has passed a few blades with hagire (that I know of). The NBTHK could do the same.. human error, I guess? It is a possibility that it developed during polish, however unlikely.. Sword was probably polished after paper and revealed an existing hagire. I can't imagine they would do it knowingly.. unless it was a very important sword.

[Jean]

That's the reason why Shinsa should only accept blades in full polish. NTHK issued a Kanteisho on a Kanetsune katana of mine which had 2 hagire...

[Stefan]

NBTHK Standard 2016

 

Hozon Token1) Edo and earlier blades with correct mei, or mumei blades on which the time period, kuni and group can be identified, may receive Hozon paper.
2) Blades that meet the criteria given above can receive Hozon paper even if they are slightly tired or have kizu, as long as those may be permissible in their appreciation.
3) For Nambokucho and earlier zaimei blades by famous smiths, re-temper can be permissible if the blade is valuable as a reference, and if the jiha and nakago are sufficiently well preserved. However, this has to be documented in the paper.
4) Repair on jiha is permissible, unless it significantly impairs the beauty of the blade.
5) Blades made in Meiji and Taisho periods, and those by recently deceased smiths, can receive Hozon paper only when the blade is well made, zaimei and has a ubu-nakago.
6) Blades are put to "reservation" if a decision could not easily be made on the authenticity of the mei. This also applies to mumei blades in which an attribution is difficult to make.
7) Blades with hagiri may not receive Hozon paper.

 

The paper of this Kanetsune dates 1985. At this time the NBTHK was even more strict.

Therefore  I do think  this blade was papered in an bad polish condition. In such an condition Hagire are  often not visible. After the new polish the hagire has become  visible.

BY the way, the new polish seems to be pretty good. I do not think that any of the better Togi accepts blades with hagire. Therefore, even the polisher did not see it because of the bad condition of the blade.

[Shugyosha]

It's an interesting example. 

 

Having thought further, if the flaw did appear after shinsa and during polish, I'm curious as to why the "high ranking polisher" went on to finish the job after the hagire had become apparent and (excluding personal sentiment) why the owner would spend further money on what is effectively a write-off.  

[vajo]

One question. Anybody knows why the hagiri is shinning white on the photo.

[Stefan]

I do think it is a matter of refraction on the sharp edges of the hagire.