Lacquered Tsuba ?

[truelotus]

Well, this is a newly acquired - rather cheap tsuba I found on ebay

basically, my main reason to buy it is rather comical, because it resembled (sorry) an "a**hole" 

I think the basic pattern is take-zu (underside of a mushroom) ?

the seller said the main material is iron, but I doubt that it was carved, so I bought it

upon arrival, I am a bit amazed by the quality of workmanship, these piece is definitely old, and it was an iron mokko tsuba, but strangely decorated with thick urushi with gold tone

very nice tsuba, and truly, the resemblance to an a**hole ... err I mean mushroom is uncanny, they even copied the texture in amazing details, you can almost feel it - the mushroom, I mean

the urushi is peeling in some parts, but overall the tsuba is intact

any opinion on school, specific name, or anything else ?? ketsuana - tsuba perhaps ?




thanks
Donny

[ROKUJURO]

Donny,

hopefully, there is a good iron plate underneath the 'decoration', so I hope the TSUBA can be saved! To my eyes, this is quite ugly!

[dominnimod]

  On 10/31/2016 at 7:54 AM, ROKUJURO said:

Donny,

 

hopefully, there is a good iron plate underneath the 'decoration', so I hope the TSUBA can be saved! To my eyes, this is quite ugly!

Whats the point if it will only leave a plain boring mokko tsuba,i would leave it the way it is

[IanB]

Not lacquer but covered with thin leather. You can see how the maker has pleated the leather to get it to lie flat. I assume the leather was lacquered before being applied since it hasn't filled the small creases. A very intriguing item.

Ian Bottomley 

[ROKUJURO]

Dominnimod/ Senor Ubaldo,

please sign all posts with your first name plus an initial, so we may address you politely.

This is a question of personal taste. 'Plain' is not necessarily  boring in my eyes. Think of a good SUGU HAMON on a classical blade!

In the case of this TSUBA, it is an unfamiliar or even rare technique of decoration and possibly interesting, but not beautiful in my eyes. Of course I would not alter it, so my suggestion of "saving" it got a  !

[Gordon Sanders]

Jean

 

From http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/18602-nihonto-restauration-projecthelp-getting-rid-of-rust/?hl=dominnimod&do=findComment&comment=191653

 

His first name is Josh

[dominnimod]

Well,actually i have two names and i really don't mind how you call me.I have been some time in the forum and i know you guys are polite,im not getting offended 

Jose/Ubaldo/Josh . L ,they all are right

Btw,i also aggre that 'Plain' is not necessarily boring,

i just jumped because i thought you meant about removing what we now know its leather when you talked about the iron plate underneath,

about that, my bad,sorry   

 

Sinceresly

[ggil]

wow, what an a*%hole!  The tsuba is definitely quite odd and unappealing, because the maker left out the 'dingleberries'.    Seriously though, while not envious of the acquisition, I do admire Donny's sense of humor; and would like to hear more about his unique collection. 

[Brian]

When a museum curator tells you your item is intriguing, then you definitely have something there.
I wouldn't discount this tsuba...it obviously had some effort put into it.

[Stephen]

say it tant so....

[truelotus]

wow, I don't really expect this much attention from you all

let me share my thoughts on this piece, WARNING - I may be wrong

 

  On 10/31/2016 at 10:21 AM, IanB said:

Not lacquer but covered with thin leather. You can see how the maker has pleated the leather to get it to lie flat. I assume the leather was lacquered before being applied since it hasn't filled the small creases. A very intriguing item.

Ian Bottomley 

 

Thanks, Ian ... I open to the possibility of leather, or even papers, crumpled to make the texture, and later lacquered with brown-gold urushi. See pic below
 

we can see that the rim is lacquered black, and the seppa dai area were flattened, means this was meant to be mounted the way it is

 

  On 10/31/2016 at 7:54 AM, ROKUJURO said:

Donny,

hopefully, there is a good iron plate underneath the 'decoration', so I hope the TSUBA can be saved! To my eyes, this is quite ugly!

 

this is not a mokko tsuba, decorated with lacquer with intention of preserving original tsuba within. The coating was done intentionally as part of the tsuba decoration, I think




 

 

  On 10/31/2016 at 4:56 PM, ggil said:

wow, what an a*%hole!  The tsuba is definitely quite odd and unappealing, because the maker left out the 'dingleberries'.    Seriously though, while not envious of the acquisition, I do admire Donny's sense of humor; and would like to hear more about his unique collection. 

I promised a friend I would mount a browniest and darkest nakago thru it and take a good pic :D

 

 

  On 10/31/2016 at 5:43 PM, Brian said:

When a museum curator tells you your item is intriguing, then you definitely have something there.
I wouldn't discount this tsuba...it obviously had some effort put into it.

OK then, I would sell it to christie's for USD 10,000 ... thank you (just kidding)


I have seen cast urushi tsuba before, but not this kind of decoration, is there any reference to it ??

[truelotus]

more pics

[IanB]

Donny, Your analogy to the gills of a mushroom is apt, although it may also be likened to those tsuba cut with radiating lines invoking Amida Buddha.

 

Although not quite the same, there was a vogue in the Muromachi era to cover entire swords in lacquered leather. I have only handled a scabbard, but that was entirely covered in thin leather that appeared to have been shrunk on then lacquered, the shape of all the mounts being visible. The tsuba on swords treated in this way seem from the images I have seen to be covered with a leather bag that is gathered in pleats on either side, the tsuka being conventionally wrapped. There is a good example illustrated in the Tokyo National Museum's catalogue of the Special Exhibition in 1997 on p.208 / 209 and an even more relevant example on p.216 which is very similar to your tsuba.

Ian Bottomley

[John A Stuart]

A mushroom is a good call, better than what it reminded me of, for sure. It seems to me to have been gilded, no? John

[truelotus]

  On 11/1/2016 at 10:33 AM, IanB said:

Donny, Your analogy to the gills of a mushroom is apt, although it may also be likened to those tsuba cut with radiating lines invoking Amida Buddha.

 

Although not quite the same, there was a vogue in the Muromachi era to cover entire swords in lacquered leather. I have only handled a scabbard, but that was entirely covered in thin leather that appeared to have been shrunk on then lacquered, the shape of all the mounts being visible. The tsuba on swords treated in this way seem from the images I have seen to be covered with a leather bag that is gathered in pleats on either side, the tsuka being conventionally wrapped. There is a good example illustrated in the Tokyo National Museum's catalogue of the Special Exhibition in 1997 on p.208 / 209 and an even more relevant example on p.216 which is very similar to your tsuba.

Ian Bottomley

ouch, you made me feel guilty about ketsu-ana thingy before

 

I never thought it would represent something sacred as Amida Buddha ... pardon me on that

 

did you happen to have the pictures of the catalogue, especially on the specific page, Ian ?

 

thanks

 

Donny

[truelotus]

  On 11/1/2016 at 10:50 AM, John A Stuart said:

A mushroom is a good call, better than what it reminded me of, for sure. It seems to me to have been gilded, no? John

see, I'm not the only one who taught it was resembled ... well ... that thing :D

 

Donny

[Henry Wilson]

The emphasis seems to be on the appearance of the leather and the lacquer coating as opposed to utility. Therefore, I would say it is an Edo period revival peice intended to recreate and elaborate on the early leather covered tsuba of myth and lore. Or some sort of exaggerated theatrical costume piece.

[truelotus]

  On 11/1/2016 at 12:03 PM, Henry Wilson said:

The emphasis seems to be on the appearance of the leather and the lacquer coating as opposed to utility. Therefore, I would say it is an Edo period revival peice intended to recreate and elaborate on the early leather covered tsuba of myth and lore. Or some sort of exaggerated theatrical costume piece.

quite possibly ... judging the piece, it's pretty old - but then, edo era spanning for almost 400 years. Judging from the effort put into it and the details like flattened area in seppa dai, I believed this was not a theatrical costume piece, as this one is truly functional, it has steel core

 

so, there's a possibility this one is genuine late muromachi tsuba, then ?

[IanB]

Donny, sadly my scanner is on the blink. Maybe someone can scan the image - especially that on p.216. I doubt your tsuba is Muromachi, but perhaps inspired by the leather covered ones of that era. BTW the Edo period is generally taken to be  1603 - 1868  so 265 years - sorry for being pedantic   

 

Ian Bottomley

[truelotus]

  On 11/2/2016 at 11:26 AM, IanB said:

Donny, sadly my scanner is on the blink. Maybe someone can scan the image - especially that on p.216. I doubt your tsuba is Muromachi, but perhaps inspired by the leather covered ones of that era. BTW the Edo period is generally taken to be  1603 - 1868  so 265 years - sorry for being pedantic   

 

Ian Bottomley

thanks for your opinion, Ian - I really appreciate it 

 

anyhow, since it was covered with lacquered leather, it is indeed possible to scrap a bit and do a radio carbon dating on the object ?? (just curious, but I won't do that for sure) :D

[Geraint]

 

Dear Donny,

 

Not, I think, from Ian's reference but from the Tokyo Museum collection.  Kudos to Ian for spotting this one!

 

[truelotus]

  On 11/4/2016 at 9:22 PM, Geraint said:

Nerigawa tsuba 001.jpg

 

Dear Donny,

 

Not, I think, from Ian's reference but from the Tokyo Museum collection.  Kudos to Ian for spotting this one!

thank you, but still difficult for me to see the resemblance, this one seems like a bag to protect the tsuba - and mine is an integral part of the tsuba

 

Donny

[IanB]

Donny, I agree they are not the same, but if you were looking at the Muromachi koshirae from the front, all you would see of the tsuba is the pleated leather 'bag' over it. Your tsuba would not look exactly the same, but again seen from the front it would look very similar. That is why I said your tsuba may have been 'inspired' by the earlier style.

Ian Bottomley

[truelotus]

  On 11/7/2016 at 9:54 AM, IanB said:

Donny, I agree they are not the same, but if you were looking at the Muromachi koshirae from the front, all you would see of the tsuba is the pleated leather 'bag' over it. Your tsuba would not look exactly the same, but again seen from the front it would look very similar. That is why I said your tsuba may have been 'inspired' by the earlier style.

Ian Bottomley

yea, I can imagine it, thanks Ian

 

I really appreciate your opinion. Too bad we live half a world apart, If only I lived close by, I would send it to you for closer examination