gunto Island Made Gunto?

[IJASWORDS]

Hi All, I got this sword years ago, and the previous owner said it was taken either in the Philippines or Dutch East Indies (now Indonesia). The blade is machine made, and way too good for a JEEP SPRING. The leather cover is over what looks like a RAIN FORREST timber of a red colour. The hanger and press studs are the same as those on Japanese issue covered swords. Habaki (copper) looks period, and the pommel is like late war last ditch type I have seen. Tsuba is iron, through which a leather snap tab passes. I have heard that late in the war, and on isolated islands, promoted officers got a local made sword on their promotion when Japanese pieces were not available. Any contribution would be appreciated. Neil.   

[Stegel]

Hi Neil,

here's a link to another forum where this was discussed and some examples posted as well.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?385909-Senior-NCO-Sword&highlight=SENIOR+SWORD

have read as its easier than making a summary here.

As far as Islander/colonial swords go, you should find it interesting i think.

Cheers

 

[IJASWORDS]

Hi Stegel, just to clarify, are you coming down on the side of a PETA type sword, or a JEEP SPRING? Either way, they would be period type pieces, and interesting for no other reason than historical from a militaria point of view. By the way, please don't think my collection is made up of pieces like this. And I got it for next to nothing. I posted this to get my "old" head around this new fangled computer thingy. Like attaching photos!! Your help, even your time to read and reply to my post is really appreciated. Thanks, Neil.

[ROKUJURO]

Neil,

is this a HIRA ZUKURI shaped blade?

[Bruce Pennington]

Neil,

is this a HIRA ZUKURI shaped blade?

Neil, like Jean, I would love to see the whole blade shape, as well as a close-up of the tip. Other than the tsuba, so far this looks late-war Japanese to me - the kabuto-gane (handle end-cap) and the toe of the leather saya-cover, as well as the belt-hanger, all look pretty standard. Many of the islander/occupied lands swords, that I've seen anyway, have cheaper materials and craftsmanship. It would help to see the blade and its tip

[Dave R]

Hi Stegel, just to clarify, are you coming down on the side of a PETA type sword, or a JEEP SPRING? Either way, they would be period type pieces, and interesting for no other reason than historical from a militaria point of view. By the way, please don't think my collection is made up of pieces like this. And I got it for next to nothing. I posted this to get my "old" head around this new fangled computer thingy. Like attaching photos!! Your help, even your time to read and reply to my post is really appreciated. Thanks, Neil.

 From what I have seen, the two are not mutually exclusive, some of the swords made in China for the IJA were vehicle spring steel, and some Seki blades were Rail track, (and damn good blades they are as well). Ohmura and others have words to say on the subject. 

[IJASWORDS]

Hi, firstly thanks to all of you for not jumping to any conclusions with out asking for, and examining the evidence. Photos attached as requested. Whilst the photos may be ordinary, as I said in my initial post, the blade is equal to or better than some late war NCO's that own. To be honest, I am open to any verdict on the sword. I know it is a period piece, IJA, JEEP SPRING, PETA, etc doesn't worry me, as it is still interesting as a militaria artefact. The SAYA is perfectly sewn, so a bit of work has gone into it, I would think a bit and above and beyond that of a souvenir to fool GI's. The stitching (three passes in places) was constructed to last, not to be quickly sold off. But as I said I am relaxed at any outcome. Your comments and expertise is appreciated and welcomed, Neil.

[Bruce Pennington]

I like the blade Neil. Nice "O kissaki", or large tip. The nakago, or tang, wasn't well made compared to average military blades, but that would fit the "occupied lands" idea. The two mekugi-ana (peg holes) are interesting - hand punched not machine drilled. If not Japanese made, it was made in Japanese style. Hard to see a hamon in those pics, but maybe one visible in the last one.

[Shamsy]

Based on the nakago, blade shape and fittings, I'd say it is similar to the sword referred to as the late war Muckden. Here is the link to a discussion from a while back. Sadly most of the pictures are lost now but still enough.

 

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?356639-Late-War-Shin-Gunto-or-post-war-tourist-copy

 

So since there is mostly speculation, unless I'm a little behind (which happens), my humble opinion leans towards a sword made for and/or by the collaborators for their own officers. F&G quote that the indigenous officers were not allowed to carry Japanese made swords. I would be surprised if the Japanese officers would be willing to accept indigenously made swords.

 

The handle is similar to the 'ersatz' sword in F&G original book on pg43 and again on page 266 in their second, larger hardcover. From pg263 there is also a short spiel regarding collaboration swords, but one must remember F&G is now somewhat outdated.

 

The reason I brought up the Muckden swords is I would place the level of quality at a similar level and the leather is in the same condition as most examples I've seen. That's meaning an organized and deliberate construction, but not to the Japanese standards of of construction. I would support the assessment of PETA sword myself.

 

PS. The drama in that thread Stegel was both hilarious and sad. People need to accept that the void of knowledge is greater than that known.

[Jon MB]

Thinking of selling this, thought I would record it here first. From the patina and design, I'm convinced it is old.

 

Note how it is signed, albeit in characters without much aesthetic value.

 

It's very sharp indeed, exact same length as standard gunto.

[David Flynn]

Bruce, Chu Kissaki not O kissaki.  This one is in proportion..