Which Would You Choose?

[Prewar70]

So I actually found myself in this situation and I thought it might be a good learning opportunity for me, and curious how the rest of the collecting crowd would look at this.  I don't know if there is a survey option on the boards, I didn't see one, but it would be nice to track the results if there was enough feedback.  So I know I am generalizing here, and I am intentionally leaving off the smith's names.  A good sword is a good sword, regardless of who made it.  Really good smiths have bad days, and average smiths can have an outstanding day.  Do you buy the blade, and not the name, or a combination of the two depending on other factors.  Is it more important to you to have a big name and average blade?  A beautiful girl isn't so beautiful to everyone.  So, generally speaking if you care to indulge me, where would you put your money?  Each of these swords had an asking price between $5 and $6k USD without negotiating.  All are Shinto blades, in shirasaya.  Let's ignore koshirae, we're just buying the blade.  If you're budget today is Juyo, pretend you're back in the early days.  $5k is a lot of money, I think.  

 

Option 1: Jo-jo saku, 100+ point smith, NTHK-NPO US Shinsa 74 points, plenty to see but needs a polish to truly enjoy, but looks thin, polish could be a dice roll

 

Option 2:  Chu-jo saku, 20-50 point smith, Tokubetsu Hozon papers, ok older polish, can enjoy as is

 

Option 3:  Jo-saku, 15 point smith, Tokubetsu Hozon papers, good polish, perfect

 

Option 4:  Jo-jo saku, 20 point smith, Hozon papers, good polish, perfect

[Ken-Hawaii]

I guess everyone has his druthers, James, but I wouldn't choose a blade based on the old Fujishiro rating, to begin with, & I sure wouldn't spend $5-$6K on a Shinto blade. But the fact that I prefer Kamakura & Nambokucho blades is based on my own preferences, & that's not what you asked. With Tokubetsu Hozon origami, & Jo-saku rating, Option 3 seems to be a no-brainer, all other things being equal (which they never are!).

 

Ken

 

[Jean]

James,

 

What means these xxx point smith?

[Prewar70]

Jean, it's Hawley's rating system, for whatever that's worth.  I see a lot of people refer to it still.

 

Ken, you raise a good point, regarding the value of the rating systems.  They are widely referred to so maybe they have some validity.  And maybe they are more valid to a newbie like myself, there are so many variables in collecting it gives a person a feeling of assurance.  My post is probably a very newbie way to even think about it.  But points like yours and others hopefully, might give me some overall perspective.  I probably shouldn't have included the price range and period, as it really doesn't matter.  These factors can be different for everybody, and they can change over time too. Maybe you really want a piece by a highly sought after school or smith, but their top works are out of your price range so you are ok with an average sword.  There are so many combinations it's hard  for it to mean anything definitive but it might get some conversation going.

 

Another example, I looked at what I thought was a beautiful sword, nice hamon, ubu, no ware, great period koshirae, NTHK papers, 75 points, smith was from Bungo province.  When I asked another collector he said nice blade, but Bungo smiths aren't very regarded.  So now I got this stuck in my head but yet that was a great sword!  I'm not a dealer, so I don't think of the money part in the same way as a dealer might.  I don't want to get robbed either, so it would be nice to buy at a safe level so if I sell someday to advance my collection, I'm in a decent position.  Does a TH papered blade from a chu saku smith move faster than a hozon papered blade by a jo-jo smith, no hard n fast rules.    I don't know, my thinking is probably all screwed up, but that's what I've been chewing on all day.

[Jean]

James,

 

 

That's what I suspected, you are mixing two different ratings, Fujishiro and Hawley

 

Read this article : http://www.nihonto.ca/ratings.html

 

Sorry but the rating shown is wrong:

 

Jojo>jo>chu jo>chu

[Prewar70]

I didn't think I was mixing them, but providing both Hawley's point system and Fujishiro's rating.  I agree with the Fujishiro you listed, and double checked what I posted and they are correct.

[Jim P]

Hi James, without seeing the swords, Which Would i Choose? none if you want us to help we need the pics just going by the ratings is not the best way forward just as an example I have a sword with an 80 point rating I have see swords that would impress and I would love the own  and ones that I would not buy all the variable come "in to" play    

[Kronos]

It depends why you're buying but either way you don't want to lose money if you ever sell. So I'd say that chujo shinto smiths are limited around the 5-6k mark any way you slice it so it's close to it's maximum value so that option would be out. For the other three it really depends on the condition and individual smiths.

 

There's saijo smiths that have made garbage and have a small premium due to the name but these works are not the reason they attained that ranking,whereas there's jo saku smiths who are ridiculously consistent so as long as it's ubu, zaimei and not tired they're pretty much guaranteed to sell for 1.5-2.5m yen. There's also how popular they currently are so another jo saku smith may top out at 1.2m yen in Japan  unless it goes juyo just because of popularity.

 

Saying all that I'd go for 3 or 4 depending on the smiths and quality unless I could convince the seller of 1 to allow me to pay for a window and buy it only if I liked what I see.

[paulb]

Over what iis now 35 years or more of collecting I must have bought sold or exchanged between 150 and 250 swords, possibly more. In that time I have seen swords by well known or highly rated smiths that were, at least to me, extremely boring and works from lowly rated schools which have  been stunning.

In that time I have never looked at either Fujishiro or Hawleys as a guide as to whether I should buy a blade.

I have taken note of any NBTHK or NTHK paper, more as reassurance and for comfort when I am buying from overseas and unseen (in hand).

The point I am getting to is that the Fujishiro rating or Hawley points score should not be a predominant consideration when buying:

 

First and foremost do I like it?

second will the enjoyment I get from it justify the cost?

On the basis that I know about 50% of what I think I know and probably less than 5% of what there is to know is my opinion consistent with an organisation that knows a lot more than I do, i.e. has it passed shinsa?

As has been said here so many times before we appear to be increasingly obsessed with score ratings level of papers and the meaning of a particular phrase on a sayagaki. What we should be obsessed with is the quality and condition of the sword and whether it appeals to our aesthetic.

This may be because we are conscious of cost and trying to protect investment, which in these challenging times is understandable. More worrying is the market is increasingly relying on any grading system it can as a substitute for study. When buying a sword you are buying a piece of history and art not an off the shelf stock item with a star rating.

[Jean]

James,

 

If you read carefully Darcy's article, you will see that a jo saku smith cannot be rated 15 pts, if it is, Hawley's rating is wrong. A jo saku smith cannot be rated less than a chu jo or a chu saku smith. Hawley's rating (points) has been challenged for years.

 

BTW, the Hawley's has been for decade the western bible for Japanese sword but not for the Japanese. The Fujishiro's rating is less controversial and is used at 99% by Japanese dealers.

[Greg F]

James just from the info provided I would probably choose number 3 also but I think you should have put up pics of blades with the mei covered. Ive seen swords that are made in the US that people are happy to pay $10,000 for so I think $5000 for a shinto blade that was part of Samurai history is ok providing its a good blade in good condition.

 

Greg

[Alex A]

edit.

[drbvac]

Buy the one that you like = don't worry about the rating by either but that said a  Tokubetsu Hozon origami, & Jo-saku rating make it probably a nice sword - but = you still have to like it yourself.

[SAS]

I agree with Ken, Paulb, and Dr. Brian; also being in the middle of studying Bungo smiths from Koto onwards my opinion of these swords is very high......Suishinshi Masahide went to Kyushu to find the Soshu tradition which launched Shinshinto; also, the Yamashiro tradition had deep roots there