Absolutely Stunning Sword

[hxv]

Eye candy

 

Link removed.

 

 

Hoanh

[Ray Singer]

Yes it is Hoanh. Actually had hopes this would slip by relatively unnoticed, as I am the one who put in the first bid.

 

Best regards,

Ray

[Stephen]

pass

[Jean]

Ray,

 

90% of the members look at Aoi Art each day of the week but for Mondays..

 

Six hours ago, I was looking at this sword and thought "A Juyo candidate were not it on the short size"

 

Edit to add, you will notice the difference of measurement between Aoi Art (60,4cm - wakizashi) and NBTHK Hozon mentioning it as 2 shaku and naming it a Katana.

 

 

Good luck

[Ray Singer]

Very true. Thank you Jean.

 

Best regards,

Ray

[Peter Bleed]

Hey,

I need a link to see what we are discussing...

P

[Stephen]

http://www.aoijapan.com/katana-mumei-attributed-as-yamato-shizu

[Greg F]

That is a stunner! Good luck Ray i hope you win it mate. Cheers.

 

Greg

[Ray Singer]

Appreciate it, thanks Greg. Look forward to sharing pictures if that does happen.

 

Best regards,

Ray

[mywei]

Yeah top stuff 

 

Pretty decent chance for Juyo imho. If it was like 5cm longer it would be basically guaranteed.

 

There's been a few good deals on Aoi Art of late - I think there was a Rai Kunizane ?last week if I'm not mistaken.

[Barrie B]

Interesting… I have a Wakizashi Koshirae that is very similar to the koshirae of the blade being discussed..

 

Here are some photos for comparison..

 

Barrie.

 

[Darcy]

Yeah top stuff 

 

Pretty decent chance for Juyo imho. If it was like 5cm longer it would be basically guaranteed.

 

There's been a few good deals on Aoi Art of late - I think there was a Rai Kunizane ?last week if I'm not mistaken.

 

 

This I think is part of the problem that we have in trying to figure out what is going to go Juyo because people automatically assume it means pretty blade, and it doesn't. This is a pretty blade. 

 

However there is exactly one Yamato Shizu Juyo Token that is below 61cm and is not a naginata naoshi or a tanto. It was made roughly 30 years ago at the nadir of selection criteria for Juyo Token. This tells you that short Yamato Shizu are very poor candidates for passing Juyo. And the one that passed 30 years ago ris not likely to go now. 

 

And adding 5cm to it would not guarantee it. Because there are only 9 all time that are 66cm and lower by this school that passed.

 

If you want to be comfortable saying Juyo guarantee the criteria are a lot higher: there was an ubu 92 cm Motoshige last year or the year before, signed and dated and good condition. Now that you can guarantee and you can even say "should pass Tokuju easily" because it is actually unique. There are two other ubu Motoshige tachi and they are 71cm (Tokuju) and 110cm (Juyo Bunkazai but unsigned). So that tells you that you can probably have a sure thing that the 92cm signed and dated ubu one will go Tokuju as it stands alone for what it is. 

 

People submit a lot of things that have no chance because they don't have their heads wrapped around the correct criteria. Pretty is one of them (that is, one of the correct ones) but on its own carries zero weight. Like the world's best running back with no offensive line, on his own, he is going nowhere.

 

The incorrect perception that a blade is a good candidate for Juyo PLUS the incorrect weight given to Juyo in the pricing equation PLUS lack of knowledge of how many lie below the surface, leads people to the statement that "those are some pretty good deals" and usually it's just the perception of a pretty good deal. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. But you need the perception in order to make the sale for sure.

 

So in this case, you have to know what you are buying and not buy on any hopes for anything more than what you see or that it is worth more than you paid for. Then you will be safe and happy.

[Stephen]

Did you win Rayray?

[Ray Singer]

Did you win Rayray?

No Stephen, it went to someone else.

 

Best regards,

Ray

[Stephen]

Sorry for your loss 

[Jean]

Darcy,

 

http://www.nihonto.com/rh494.html

 

This one is over 70cm.

 

How many yamato shizu swords with nagasa above 66 cm passed juyo? Is it the same with Naoe Shizu swords?

[Curran]

Jean:  before Darcy responds, I would note that the Nihonto.com one is from Showa 51 (1976).

You know the sentiment on what passed Juyo around that time.

 

Otherwise, I'm neutral on this.

I find the Shizu ones particularly confusing, as one I studied years ago I was a little surprised had made Juyo. I admit it had a polish that I thought hackneyed.

I learned recently that, with a new polish, it passed Tokubetsu Juyo. Either that new polish was one heck of a job, or I haven't the correct mindset for seeing past the polish of swords.

For the most part, I will stick to fittings.

[Jean]

Curran,

 

In fact my question is:

 

Is there any a priori in NBTHK against this school (meaning in general this school does not qualify in quality to juyo shinsa criteria and is it the same for Naoe Shizu school, though for this latter one, I doubt it).

[Darcy]

there are 23 naoe shizu 10 of which are waks that are juyo... 30 including naginata naoshi and tanto, all below 66. Some of these 23 are nagonata naoshi but the nbthk does not always say before the last 20 years but it's obvious when you look at it. They are not hiding it just not bothering.

 

The whole Shizu thing is a bit of a mess but I would rank them like this

 

1. Shizu Kaneuji

2. Yamato Shizu Kaneuji

3. Naoe Shizu

4. Yamato Shizu

 

Yamato Shizu may just be a synonym for Nanbokucho Tegai in many ways.

 

There is no bias against it but we always have to remember that the attribution on a mumei blade is the first form of quality assessment.

 

Kaneuji is a first tier swordsmith. As you progress down some of those blades are so confusingly similar in construction that the list of features could be pegged to any of the four. So if it is best of all Yamato Shizu school it goes to 2. If it is not it goes to 4. The weakest of 1 will overlap with the best of 3.

 

The weakest of 1 will be below the best of 2.

 

Some of the weakness can be ascribed to condition and it may be factor in it passing juyo or not.

 

With Yamato Shizu you need to assume it is a school attribution unless it's indicated somehow otherwise. Either it's said to be Kamakura which is a quiet nod to Kaneuji or someone disambiguates by adding Kaneuji to the description.

 

As you shift down lower in the reputation tree you need the work to burn brighter to make up for it. One of the most beautiful tanto I know of (very flashy style) is 2nd generation Yamato Shizu Kaneuji and signed. It is Tokuju. So the work needs to particularly elevate as a masterpiece and that it is signed removes some of the attribution as quality assessment indications.

 

It always needs to be thought of like this:

 

A Shizu is almost a Masamune but not quite. That not quite is what makes it Shizu. Not because we have a time portal and know the truth. The best Shizu have always been mixed into Masamune and are very hard to extract. The same logic applies at Naoe Shizu to Shizu. Not quite good enough. Yamato Shizu is like what side of the 50% line does it stand for Yamato features and/or quality? Some you can argue for one or the other and your opinion is ok.

 

A Suriage Masamune wak can be Juyo Bunkazai but a suriage Yamato Shizu school attribution can't. Not because there is bias against Yamato Shizu school but if it was better it would be Kaneuji as mumei. Even better it could be Masamune and then qualify. So the attribution is returning a judgment already.

 

Someone gives you Hozon Awataguchi and it is already Juyo. Someone gives you Hozon mumei Sue Seki And it is Hozon forever. The attribution already told you this.

 

Someone gives you Goto Yujo and they are saying top of the line Muromachi soft metal work. Cannot be better. Juyo or not is maybe timing and politics and luck. The attribution already told you it is Juyo. Like the Kiyomaro mumei the attribution says the work is Juyo but in that case the condition is a political thing it can't pass. Hozon because of details. Important details but still details.

 

When it gets to Tokuju a Tokuju Kencho may not be the equal of a Juyo Masamune that cannot pass Tokuju. The reason is that the Masamune has to primarily compete against other Tokuju Masamune and the Kencgo against other Kencho as well as compete against each other.

 

So the trick is to not be blind to the attribution .... if it is Ko-Bizen Masatsune then they are saying this is the best possible work of the Ko-Bizen school already. To put any work to a famous smith means it has to be congruent with the reputation of that smith. I say they are no bad Masamune and if there were they are now Shimada. Shimada is not bad but against a Masamune they don't hold a candle. So the mumei goes into the quality bucket where it belongs.

 

Yukimitsu and Norishige are every bit as good as Masamune, maybe 1 percent off but their finest work in a style that could be said to be Masamune becomes Masamune. Best work of Nagashige becomes Chogi or Kanemitsu.

 

To unravel it now is sometimes hard ... so on a case by case basis you need to know if the reputation has been somewhat robbed like with Yukimitsu and Nagashige or if everything is where it should be. With school attributions it is pretty reliable. A mumei Aoe in good condition you can swap with another and the owner might not know. More specifically attributed and the story changes. Put to Aoe SADATSUGU and they are saying best possible of all Aoe. If it ain't good enough to be Aoe though then it won't be. And Aoe is great... about 10% of all Tokuju are Aoe. Not good enough and it becomes Ko-Mihara which is not bad but not first ranked like Aoe.

 

Worse than Ko-Mihara and you start to drift... where to put it slowly becomes arbitrary and unimportant because they are all synonyms for not good enough to be a well known school.

 

Yamato Shizu ... best can pass Tokuju. But there is a high bar. The bar for Juyo is high as seen. There are three Tokuju all good length katana. First says Kamakura period (so is Kaneuji). Ne t two say beginning of Nanbokucho but the maker is additionally said to be Kaneuji specifically. So, no school blades. 2 of 3 from famous daimyo which helps. Not because the daimyo had it. But the daimyo had it because it was outstanding. So again have to key on the right bit of info and know which is cart and which is horse.

 

Compare to Shizu himself after Masamune and now there are 14 Tokuju, 9 jubi and 6 Juyo Bunkazai. So you can see the difference in what the attribution means. Those best of Yamato Kaneuji may be better than a conventional Shizu. But in general all other things factored out a Shizu attribution is just that half to full notch better than even Yamato Shizu Kaneuji.

 

Fujishiro agrees because when directly reared he calls one jo-jo and the other Sai-jo so you don't have to try to calculate the relative changes of school or period internet in his rating system Kaneuji just got better after going to Kamakura and the work re ord agrees with the story - or - the story affects how they label the work. The net results are the same.

 

Edit: please excuse weird iPad substitutions... like Sao-job ...