Brian Posted September 30, 2016 Report Posted September 30, 2016 This is why people should not try and restore Japanese swords.Oh well, at least his investment in a buff paid off At least it is just a Showato that has been ruined....but next time it will be something important. *sigh* http://www.gunbroker.com/item/587142528 1
Stephen Posted September 30, 2016 Report Posted September 30, 2016 Think they chromed it and lost the habaki in the vat...LOL
Alex A Posted September 30, 2016 Report Posted September 30, 2016 Ignorance is bliss, blissful shine They know not what they do (sure ive read that before)
BenVK Posted September 30, 2016 Report Posted September 30, 2016 Looks to have been chromed to me as well but I've seen a lot worse. Regardless of what's been done to this blade, which is wrong without doubt, I have to question the whole communities stance on the subject of polishing. It seems to me that it's a taboo subject which just seems crazy to me because a sword only becomes a sword once it's been polished. I'm not talking Hadori or Sashikomi, I'm talking about the foundation polish which isn't a "polish" at all really. It sets the whole geometry of the blade, doesn't it? Without it, it's just a lump of folded steel. So why is the focus always on the smith who hammers the lump of tamahagane into a sword like shape? A phenomenal skill without doubt but what about the polisher who then turns that piece of steel into a blade? Is he not worth recognising or studying? I'm in awe that some of you can describe in Japanese words what metallurgical features a blade has in the Hamon and Ha. However, if it wasn't for the craftsman who polished the blade, you wouldn't be able to see the activity would you. Well, that's just my opinion. 1
Shamsy Posted September 30, 2016 Report Posted September 30, 2016 At least it is just a Showato While I agree that is better than an old Koto, that's still an irreplaceable piece of history trashed by greed (or 'tidied up' to improve sale possibility). There aren't as many of these swords around as we'd like to think and they are steadily decreasing because of mistreatment by idiots. One day they may be rarer than nihonto, since people take so many more liberties with them. As the last Japanese swords to (hopefully?) ever be used in a military conflict, it is the greatest shame.
BenVK Posted September 30, 2016 Report Posted September 30, 2016 The problem is that people continue to screw up their swords because of others who say "don't touch it" !It's completely obvious to me why they do so.
Gabriel L Posted September 30, 2016 Report Posted September 30, 2016 Ben, I am not sure what you are talking about. The NMB community in specific and the nihontō community in general is totally supportive of qualified polishing — i.e. restoration by a trained professional traditional togishi. What we are adamantly against is uneducated, amateur, ruinous "polishing" of the kind that this sword provides an especially terrible example. In fact I'd say that it is precisely because of our deep respect for the tremendous craftsmanship, art, training, and dedication required for a traditional polish that we are so focused on preventing people who don't know better from destroying their blades. 5
Greg F Posted October 1, 2016 Report Posted October 1, 2016 Ben if people do things like this because of spite then they realy are too immature to have a Japanese Sword imo and should leave them for people that appreciate them and want to preserve them. Greg 1
Kai-Gunto Posted October 1, 2016 Report Posted October 1, 2016 The owner thourgth It be cromed to prevent it from rusting. Maybe.
BenVK Posted October 1, 2016 Report Posted October 1, 2016 I haven't explained myself that well obviously, sorry. What I'm trying to say is this. If all discussions regarding polishing is restricted to "don't do it yourself", give it to a "professional", thread closed etc, which actually happened recently, then the subject becomes taboo doesn't it? I understand why the thread was closed but IMO, it would have been better to keep it open so that we can all discuss polishing in a sensible and instructive way. If we want to deter the owners of these things from making big mistakes in regards to restoration, the best way, IMO, is to try and educate them rather than just telling them not to do it. Let's get real here, trying to find a properly trained polisher outside of Japan is a complete nightmare even for someone who has taken considerable time to research the subject, let alone mr.average joe blogs on the street who just wants their rusty "samurai" sword to look shiny again. I've not even factored in the cost of a proper polish either which is totally out of reach of the average person. Is it that surprising then that we see so many DIY attempts? I consider myself a skilled restorer. Not of swords but of military hats and I've restored examples worth huge amounts of money. It's a very specialised thing, much more than sword polishers and there are very few of us in the world that can do it properly. I've seen everything there is to see in regards to terrible restorations but I've found that the best way to try and stop people from having a go themselves is to explain, in detail, how much work and skill is involved rather than just telling them to don't do it. After all, I guess it's human nature to do something that you're told not to do isn't it, especially if you think it's going to save you a ton of money. Getting back to the topic of Japanese swords. I've learnt that many swords that are floating around in UK have been poorly polished, I actually own one of those examples. I'm not naming any names but you guys probably know who I'm talking about. It took a lot of asking around behind the scenes to learn this because it's not really public knowledge to the novice collector like myself. I would like to go into more detail about this but I'm acutely aware that it might a touchy subject which is a disappointing fact in itself because IMO, we should be able to freely discuss this. At the end of the day, polishing is a major factor in owning a sword and it's a service that we pay good money for so we should at least know who does a good job and who does not. I would not be still restoring hats for example if I did a lousy job.
Brian Posted October 1, 2016 Author Report Posted October 1, 2016 Ben, Seems to me that every discussion about polishing is actually a thinly veiled "how to do it yourself" tactic. Any discussion about actual polishers and the craft itself is encouraged and never closed. It is closed when it turns into "don't do that, do this..."No..we will not show people how to polish. Because they need to know how to kantei first before they can polish. And no-one doing amateur polishing can do that. If they say they can...we'll post a few swords and see how they do.So no...polishing discussions are not banned here. HOW to polish...yes it is. While your craft is admirable and I am sure very difficult, I bet it does not take 1/10th the knowledge or equipment to do as successfully as polishing does. Polishers have tens of thousands of $'s of stones. You can't put back metal. And it is a 1000 year tradition, so it's not like Joe Soap suddenly discovered an easier way. We aren't stupid. There are likely lots of forum members that polish their own stuff anyways, and think they are doing a good job. Of course they will probably never know what their sword is actually supposed to look like, and some of them will never learn any better. They also will never know what swords they have that are really special and what aren't. Or what the finer features of hataraki look like. So polishing discussions? Sure, anytime. How to? Nope. And that includes showing people what they have done wrong so they can keep trying. 1
Kronos Posted October 1, 2016 Report Posted October 1, 2016 At the end of the day anyone who attempts to polish their own swords or sends them to an amateur is costing themselves a lot of money as no one who knows anything about nihonto is going to ever buy it without a significant price reduction. If you can't afford a proper polish then you're better off selling to someone who can and buying another sword already in polish with the proceeds, rather than turning what would be an unpolished $3000 katana into a badly polished $1000 katana or worse. Take the showato in the OP. That went from something probably worth a few hundred $$$'s to what is now worthless except maybe as a curiosity or to the unsuspecting ebay bidder who might get it on the cheap. The owner has cost themselves a sizeable sum through their own stupidity. It's something that will never warrant the cost of a polish but still has worth in an unpolished state. What the seller has done to it will therefore never be reversed and to me is now worth the koshirae alone which is not much. 1
BenVK Posted October 1, 2016 Report Posted October 1, 2016 I totally get what your saying Brian and I agree. I've refused to restore more hats/uniforms etc than I've actually undertaken because I think it's my responsibility to explain what shouldn't be done more than what can be done. Also, it's not just a matter of getting the sewing needles out and getting on with it. Similar to Japanese swords, 90% of the task is identifying the maker and the correct materials, techniques and style that's appropriate to that item. It's just my opinion but I think that if we were to discuss polishing in more detail including the methods, then I think it might actually deter more people than it encourages. Edit: I also think you have to give people more credit than just assuming that they will undertake a project without first spending a lot of time and effort researching and studying before they even start a restoration whether it be a hat, a sword, a car or anything else for that matter. Granted, most will just make a complete hash of it but a few will go about learning in the right way and some might even decide that they want to go on and be properly trained to a professional level.
The_ozzy_samurai Posted October 1, 2016 Report Posted October 1, 2016 Oh dear the Sword God's have spoken again!!! yeah lets send a WW2 blade worth $1000 bucks off for a professional $3000 polish??? come on really? polishing with a buffer or grinder/sander isnt really polishing,polishing with stones and using correct hardness stones without changing shape of blade and spending well over 100+ hours still isnt polishing according to the gods,only a $3000 price tag makes it a polish job, The blade in question is just another of the 100's i see floating around,if i ever polished a blade like that style or an old koto/shinto blade then i would expect a kick in the nuts,but fixing up other guys destruction on WW2 blades should not,you guys where quick to jump on the bashing wagon in my post without asking any genuine questions or asking them then locking the thread,how childish! for your information i have done a few blades now for friends and long after im dead people will look at those blades in 100 years and still be happy with its appearance, Julian
Brian Posted October 2, 2016 Author Report Posted October 2, 2016 No, what's childish is thinking that YOU are ok to polish blades without any formal training...but others out there can't. YOU know what you are doing because...what exactly? Tell you what, Andrew Ickeringill is in Oz. Please can you send a few of your blades to him, and let's ask him his opinion of what you got right and what you didn't. Why would we ask you genuine questions....can you answer them from the perspective of a trained polisher? Let's get one of your blades to someone who will shine a round light down the blade, and see if it changes shape at all, or if the surface is perfectly even. You are quick to criticize the blade in the original post, but forget that this is where all amateurs start before they get some online article or book, and start thinking they are now good at it.It's easy to spot these amateur polishes. The hada is hard, open and raw. Because it is so incredibly visible, they think they have done a great job. The hamon can be seen from half a kilometer away because the ferric chloride makes it look like it was painted on with Tippex. Good job. We now have a sword that needs even more work than it originally did, with less metal left to work with. But hey...the hamon and hada are visible, so it must be a good job.Oh wait...these guys only work on Showato, right? Good, then this entire subject doesn't even need to be discussed. Because they never work on real Nihonto and are able to tell the difference every time. of course, sometimes they will work on a Nihonto because in their professional opinion, the sword is "a write off" and no real polisher would work on it. So then it's ok, right?Oh..and maybe since they are able to do the work on a write-off...they will have a go at something half decent. But just to bring out the hamon right? Just to see if it is there, and if the blade is anything decent. But wait...they have no idea how to kantei anyways. So they'll just assume it is a kazu-uchimono and it's fine to carry on with it anyways, right?And while we are there, we'll just use a few fingerstones on that decent sword over there, because it has some rust starting. They won't remove too much metal, so it's not like the whole sword will have to be repolished to bring everything down to the same level later, right? Not that they know what that looks like, because they have never seen a sword in a full professional polish, so as long as the hada is glaringly obvious and the hamon looks like toothpaste....it's all good, right? Of course all of the above doesn't apply to you. You know better. So when we condemn amateur polishing..we should condemn amateur polishing EXCEPT those done by Mr X, Y and Z. Because they do a decent job. But the others....nah..those we shouldn't discuss. Pity the "Amateur Polishing Guild That Does a Half Decent Job" isn't currently meeting or evaluating sword polishers. 9
kissakai Posted October 2, 2016 Report Posted October 2, 2016 Brian I think a round of applause is in order
Stephen Posted October 2, 2016 Report Posted October 2, 2016 I think he needs to put up or shut up, show your work or spare us your dribble.
Gordon Sanders Posted October 2, 2016 Report Posted October 2, 2016 Brian, I am not sure what you are trying to say (as I run and duck for cover) :-)
Brian Posted October 2, 2016 Author Report Posted October 2, 2016 Yeah, perhaps I was a little too subtle. That's what happens when you catch me too early on a Sunday morning. 1
Shamsy Posted October 2, 2016 Report Posted October 2, 2016 Oh dear the Sword God's have spoken again!!! yeah lets send a WW2 blade worth $1000 bucks off for a professional $3000 polish??? come on really? Julian Your lack of respect for these historical swords says it all really.
Brian Posted October 3, 2016 Author Report Posted October 3, 2016 Ok, let's not make this a personal thing. Julian has a valid point about some swords not being worth the cost of a professional polish. That is true, and always has been. However it cannot be justification for an amateur to do the work because no-one else will. The owner must decide how he would like to proceed, given the correct advice by those who know better.But it is not our job to instruct on how to do an amateur job and that is my point. There are trained polishers who will quote on a "Showato" foundation or basic polish out there, and others who do not charge $2000 for a polish to non-traditionally made swords. The owner needs to do his research.No-one here can justify what was done to the sword in the original post, and judging by the rounded lines, chromed or not, it was buffed to hell and all lines ruined, so an extremely expensive repair job for someone.
dominnimod Posted October 3, 2016 Report Posted October 3, 2016 Ok, let's not make this a personal thing. Julian has a valid point about some swords not being worth the cost of a professional polish. That is true, and always has been. However it cannot be justification for an amateur to do the work because no-one else will. The owner must decide how he would like to proceed, given the correct advice by those who know better. But it is not our job to instruct on how to do an amateur job and that is my point. There are trained polishers who will quote on a "Showato" foundation or basic polish out there, and others who do not charge $2000 for a polish to non-traditionally made swords. The owner needs to do his research. No-one here can justify what was done to the sword in the original post, and judging by the rounded lines, chromed or not, it was buffed to hell and all lines ruined, so an extremely expensive repair job for someone. I see his point,but i think that of not being worth cost of a professional polish is quite relative,they aren't now,but value of money fluctuate continuously,as it isn't a perfect nor absolute system. For example, at post-war the value of the dollar was way over the yen and so you were able to purchase great swords and mounts for almost no money. Also,right now people disparage showatos and gendaitos but that's because we still lack the 'time' factor when we come to judge them.They were also many crudely made swords from the koto period but those aren't mistreated nowadays,maybe they were in the 1600's I think that if you can't afford giving them an artistic polish, oiling and storing or passing it is the way to go. 1
Stephen Posted October 3, 2016 Report Posted October 3, 2016 Back to org blade, at first look i didnt go past first few photos, after viewing all, it is chromed, just a look at the nakago tells us that, as well as the tsuba. The buffing came from prepping the blade to be dipped. A local had something to the likes of this, (koto blade) removing chrome didnt cost him much but it removed all patina from the nakago. At least this is just a showato and not a older blade. 1
BenVK Posted October 3, 2016 Report Posted October 3, 2016 The foundation polish is not a basic or cheaper polish or anything like that. It’s the polish that sets the geometry of the blade using natural or artificial waterstones in increasingly finer grades of abrasiveness. If the blade is badly rusted or pitted, chipped or geometery rounded off etc then it will definitely require a foundation polish, you can’t skip this step. After completion, the blade will have a dull matt grey finish with lots of scratches all over it and basically, it will look like crap. I suppose you could ask a trained polisher to polish a Showato just up to this stage as to keep costs down but that would be ridiculous as it would still require a finishing polish of some sort. So we’re kind of back to square one in terms of the prohibitive costs. There are individuals out there who offer much cheaper polishes that incorporate both the foundation and finishing stages but to save a lot of time and therefore cost, machine tools are used. I’ll leave it to others to decide if machine polishing is the right thing to do or not for Showato...
Brian Posted October 3, 2016 Author Report Posted October 3, 2016 Foundation polish is also where the biggest and worst mistakes happen. This is where far too much metal can be removed, or the entire geometry of the sword can be changed. This is probably the most important part to have done by a professional, if anything. Few will ever get the shinogi straight and correct, and the niku done properly. Usually you end up with a "V" shaped edge with no niku at all.It is called a "foundation polish" for a reason, because that sets the foundation for the entire blade. I would not even talk to someone who brought a machine tool even close to a Japanese sword. Not even bad amateurs use machine tools imho. 5
BenVK Posted October 4, 2016 Report Posted October 4, 2016 You make a very good point about the niku. I think some pro's and amateurs are guilty of removing too much of it. Sometimes it's entirely gone and you're left with just a flat surface.
Greg F Posted October 4, 2016 Report Posted October 4, 2016 I have my doubts about any amateur polisher not taking off too much niku and screwing up the lines.i would be absolutely amazed if an amateur polisher can show us pics of their work and show they havnt damaged the blade one way or another. The more one learns about the traditional process the more convincing it is that it can only be done properly if you want to have a blade properly preserved in the way the smith intended. Some things cant be learned from watching vids and reading books and practice, if it was possible half of us probably would give it a go but it just isnt. Some people learn some things easier than others but no short cuts with Nihonto. My rant is over. Cheers. Greg
SAS Posted November 3, 2016 Report Posted November 3, 2016 Can't believe I missed this thread.... Anything that can be screwed up by hand can be screwed up a gazillion times faster with a machine. DON'T DO IT!!!!
ROKUJURO Posted November 4, 2016 Report Posted November 4, 2016 Really no machines?I remember talking to a well known German NIHONTO dealer many years ago. He was proud to tell me that 'his' polisher, a certain KASUGA in KOBE, used machines for the basic grinding to save time, and so could do the job for much less than a private collector would have paid. There is another subject I want to comment on. The foundation polish is the basis for all other steps of polishing, but the shape is formed by the smith himself who does the first steps with a file, a SEN and some relatively coarse stones. After this treatment, the HAMON is - at least slightly - visible and the shape is given to a very high degree. NIKU and MUNE are clearly formed, KISSAKI, SHINOGI and SORI are defined, all lines are sharp.That is what I have seen myself but maybe not all swordsmiths work that way.
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