This Week's Edo Period Corner

[Bugyotsuji]

Here are the tools from yesterday after a quick session with a wire brush, and a shot of the 紫檀　shi-tan katana stand and woven cord. (The little hammers are a mystery. I already had one which I tend to use as a mekugi-nuki, and was pleased to discover another. They must have had a purpose, but in what field?)

[Stephen]

so whats the answer?

 

dont say one of the lower two (only smiliy thats green)

 

was wondering if you seen Nihonto at a fair like that why not show what one could buy in the street, does one have to take it too there local PD when you get home?

bit puzzled why nothing was said about his table and what he had to offer, as this board is about Nihonto.

[Brian]

When I was in Japan, I really did enjoy the flea markets and small shrine antiques markets. A bit of asking around did always turn up a few swords in car boots or on tables. Usually they were low class blades with lots of ware and out of polish, but they always had their torokusho licence with them, and you could buy them if you could get them deregistered legally.

But nothing I saw there was any better than the average eBay sword, and they were usually in the region of $1000-2000 anyways, so not many bargains. As anywhere, they knew there was a market for them, and even if they didn't know much about the swords, they were the ones that locals had passed up before.

 

Brian

[Bugyotsuji]

Well, Stephen, I guess Brian has answered your serious question pretty well. There are usually two or three stalls with swords and tsuba and tosogu fittings, but in my experience they are either a) fake and cheap, or b) possibly genuine, but too expensive. The 'cheaper' offerings tend to be in the middle or towards the entrance to the stall, and the rather better objects under the nose of the stall-keeper. I don't consider myself well schooled enough to even enquire about the swords for sale, although I do have one dealer friend who is fairly honest and quite often casually gives me the background story to something I might have bought. Quite an eye-opener on occasion. I like sitting with him in his stall and checking his swords, spears, armour/armor etc., and letting him tell me about his swords or the goings on behind the antiques market scenes. He's also the auctioneer at the local area dealer's market.

 

The answer to this week's quiz is that the tools were 200 yen each, but when I grabbed a handful he counted them and said 700 yen altogether, please. The silk obi? sageo? cord was 500 yen, but when I mentioned some slight discoloration, he grabbed it, shot a glance at it and shouted, 300!

The katana-kake was 3,000 yen. He told me he had bought it off a bloke with a large sword collection just last week for 3,000 yen, but was happy to let it go at the same price. He was packing up. I didn't even haggle. Add it all up and the answer is a nice green

4,000 JPY, if you discount the cost of the expressway and the gasoline/petrol. (Actually I drove back the low road to save on highway tolls.)

[Bungo]

"The katana-kake was 3,000 yen. He told me he had bought it off a bloke with a large sword collection just last week for 3,000 yen, but was happy to let it go at the same price. He was packing up. I didn't even haggle. Add it all up and the answer is a nice green "

 

Bug,

 

you did ask about that bloke with a large sword collection ?

 

 

milt

[Bugyotsuji]

Hmmm... now there's a thought. Bit late now, though...

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

PS Does Golden Kite mean the bird alone, or the kites that people fly in the sky, or both? And is the bird in the first picture a Hokkaido Washi, a sea eagle, or what? The closest I can find in my small birdbook is a goshawk, using for hunting/falconry throughout the world. And what tree branch is it sitting on?

 

Hi Piers. I've no idea... :lol: Medals are totally out of my range. Hayabusa and Yatagarasu are used in sake cups

as well as in medals because the relationship the military had with the ancient myts, but I've never digged in what they

mean.

 

You definitively would like to pay a visit to the Stibbert Museum's collection in Florence with Franci.

Lots of Teppo to droll on.

[Bugyotsuji]

That sounds like a great idea, Carlo. I'd love to do that sooner rather than later.

 

Who is Franci, BTW?

 

This summer I stayed in Japan through August for the first time in many years. This gave me lots of free time and I managed to do some things which had been eluding me.

 

One was the creation of a notebook of what I have acquired over the months and years. (Failing memory.) I have seen widows who took no interest, unable to deal with their husband's stuff, who have called in a 'friendly' dealer to carry it all away for a round sum. "OK, 500 dollars, the lot..."

In fact I am convinced that this is one stream that feeds the antiques market.

 

Do you think this notebook is a good idea, and what do you think it should include?

 

I have an index page indicating the various sections, eg 'Paper Lanterns' or 'Kiseru pipes'. For each object I write a description of it, why it is special, what it was originally on sale for, how much I actually paid, and what I think it is worth today. It is all written in such a way that even someone like one of my offspring who has shown no interest in what I have been doing, could understand. Or should it be in code?

 

"Silver pipe, black bamboo stem. Marked 純銀 Pure Silver on both mouthpiece and bowl sections. Mei æ‘ç”° Murata. Paid 7,000+/- (?) JPY (Kyoto, Tenjin san, 1972)"

 

This is to stop said supposed dealer straying too far from reality! :lol:

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Who is Franci,?

 

One of the curators.

 

One was the creation of a notebook of what I have acquired over the months and years. Do you think this notebook is a good idea, and what do you think it should include?

 

 

Looks like a good idea and think you've pretty much summarized all the entries should be included.

[Bugyotsuji]

Well, the Edo Period Corner needs updating and I am off on a long trip tomorrow.

Last weekend we went down to Tanegashima for this:

http://www.city.nishinoomote.kagoshima.jp/

 

Click on the top left piccie. I'm the one wearing a blue sporran, picture rightish. The local TV and papers covered it, so I translated one of the articles from yesterday's paper. See below. (On the way back we visited the Bukei Yashiki town of Chiran, and spent some time in the Kamikaze Tokko-tai Chiran Peace Museum. Worth a look if you have not been. Left Kagoshima at 5 pm and got back home at midnight last night. Hung up the armour to dry, did a huge wash, as everything was soaked in sweat, and cleaned the guns, getting to bed at 2:30 am.)

 

August 25 2008 Minami Nihon (South of Japan) Newspaper

 

22 Matchlock Companies Doff their Helmets in Tane-ga-Shima

 

To celebrate the arrival of the matchlock, Nishi-no-Omote Town has held a Teppo Festival. This year is the 50th year since the formation of the new city boundaries, so 22 Castle companies put in a rare appearance. Visitors were surprised and pleased to see this gathering, 465 years since guns first arrived in Japan on this small southern island in 1543.

 

The theme chosen by the council was “Arrival of the Guns – Revitalization of Our Islandâ€. A symposium was held on recent research into the history of ancient guns, and a display was put on in the newly-opened City Park. Dressed in their various traditional outfits, 250 arquebusiers or musketeers representing 22 Castle Matchlock troops strutted their stuff.

 

A 27th generation direct descendant of Tokitaka Tanegashima, Lord of Tanegashima, took the salute as the troops announced “Allow us to pay our respects!†and fired off a volley. This was followed by a full day’s display of ancient gunnery on the park stage.

 

Translation by Spider Godwin (Alias “Bugyo-tsujiâ€, official translator for the Bishu Okayama Castle Musket Company.)

 

(PS Tanegashima also happens to be where Japan fires off all their space rockets, so it is very much in the forefront of government research and funding, but a completely idyllic semi-tropical island otherwise. I think we are thinking Outer Hebrides, aren’t we?)"

[Brian]

Wow..for the gun fans like me, that must have been an awesome day.

I know that getting an original is high on my list. I assume that they are registered and deregistered on the same torokusho as the swords are, with the same procedures? Or is it a different procedure?

Funny...I have seen lots of swords in old shops and markets, but never a teppo/tanegashima except at the dedicated sword shows or shops.

 

Brian

[Bugyotsuji]

Wow..for the gun fans like me, that must have been an awesome day.

I know that getting an original is high on my list. I assume that they are registered and deregistered on the same torokusho as the swords are, with the same procedures? Or is it a different procedure?

Funny...I have seen lots of swords in old shops and markets, but never a teppo/tanegashima except at the dedicated sword shows or shops.

 

Brian

 

Brian, the process is the same, and the same card is used. You'll have noticed it is divided into two sections, the lower one for guns and the upper one for swords. The Law is Ju-To Ho, or Guns & Swords Law.

There is a huge variety in the available guns. Most decent ones are in private hands, and there are some that should be avoided at all costs. As with swords, you either have to know a lot to be confident of buying through a shop, or go through a friend who knows his oats. Our local shop here is half swords, a quarter armour, and a quarter guns. I recommend time and patience in order to source a good one, unless you already have a route. It also helps to know in advance what Kuni you feel close to, and/or what school of gunnery (which will be reflected in the shape).

[Bugyotsuji]

Here's a rare row of hand cannons. Tanegashima Island, 24th August 2008

 

See the wasp-waisted right-hand grip.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

[Brian]

Stunning stuff! I would LOVE one of those, however I find my taste in teppo/tanegashima leans towards the small handheld matchlocks (basically handguns instead of rifles if I can use that analogy)

I suppose the rifles are more sought after, so maybe there is hope of finding a deal somewhere.

Wouldn't say no to a nice rifle though.

 

Brian

[Bugyotsuji]

Stunning stuff! I would LOVE one of those, however I find my taste in teppo/tanegashima leans towards the small handheld matchlocks (basically handguns instead of rifles if I can use that analogy)

I suppose the rifles are more sought after, so maybe there is hope of finding a deal somewhere.

Wouldn't say no to a nice rifle though.

 

Brian

 

Brian, you have good taste! The shorter hand-held Bajou-zutsu (cavalry pistol) or Tan-zutsu (short pistol) are much rarer than regular long guns. I read somewhere that matchlock pistols were only ever made in Japan and... Iran(?). Within Japan, they were held by men of rank, so perhaps one in a hundred guns was a Bajou-zutsu (the Police in Japan don't like the word 'Tan-zutsu' so we tend to avoid it.) To give you an indication, we are the only musket company in Japan to be able to do a demonstration with pistols, so there's 20 against 400+/- members of other castle groups. Sometimes in the past we made up the numbers with a, shall we say, not so kosher gun. It's taken a few years but I think we are up to strength now. A lot of people are putting out quiet feelers for a decent working pistol, but they do not come up too often.

 

Because of their rarity, and the fact that they command the same price or more as a long gun, there is and has been an underground market in reproductions. Some of these are cleverly made, with an old barrel and new stock, or vice versa. If you do come across one, please let me know as we have a pool of expertise available and may be able to comment on it.

 

If you do go for a long gun, there are so many ways of describing them.

Hoso-zutsu, (literally long thin gun)

Gun-yo-zutsu (military gun, generally no fancy decorations, but made for reliability, does the business)

Shi-zutsu (samurai gun, indicating fairly thick and heavy and a bore of over 6 Monme.)

Chu-zutsu or Ju-Monme zutsu (10 Monme, .70 calibre, these are surprisingly heavy)

 

Above these are the O-zutsu or big hand-cannons, which start at 20 Monme. (I have one) Examples also exist of 30 (1.1 inch?), 50, 60, 100, 500 and 1,000, I believe, the latter having a bore about the size of a tea saucer.

 

The following site has lots of good reading, but many of the facts need to be taken with a fairly large pinch of salt. Sugawa Sensei's books are available in both Japanese and English.

http://www.japaneseweapons.com/hinawajy ... nglish.htm

 

Long Bizen-zutsu tend to be smallish calibre Hoso-zutsu, and because they were made in the same area and with the same iron as Nihonto, people prize them for the quality of the iron/steel barrels. Unlike most Japanese matchlocks which use brass for their mechanisms, Bizen tend to use iron, with silver-headed pins.

[Guido]

I read somewhere that matchlock pistols were only ever made in Japan and... Iran(?).

A few were made in Europe, but they were much more popular in Japan and especially India.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

I read somewhere that matchlock pistols were only ever made in Japan and... Iran(?).

A few were made in Europe, but they were much more popular in Japan and especially India.

 

 

The matchlock musket was the major arm of Europe's armies and had seen action in large scale conflicts such as the English Civil Wars and the Thirty Years War. Although more advanced systems of ignition came about such as the wheellock (1510), the snaphaunce (1547) and the flintlock (1610), the inexpensive and easy to manufacture matchlock musket remained in service in Europe until the 1690's.

 

French Matchlock used in 1665 by the soldiers of the Carignan-Salières's regiment.

 

[Guido]

The matchlock musket was the major arm of Europe's armies ...

We're not talking about *muskets*, we're talking about *pistols*!

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Sorry for the confusion but pistols were not so scarce in Europe, many gentlemen owned one or two pistols. with the invention of more advanced systems of ignition the time when this kind of pistol was used was much shorter than in Japan where the technology did not progress.

 

[Brian]

Thanks for the link Piers, some lovely examples there. I haven't seen too much in English on the Japanese matchlocks except for brief articles and small chapters in "The hand canons of Japan" and a few other books. What is the definitive book in English on the subject?

There is only one privately owned rifle here in SA that I have seen, and haven't found the right trade item yet

I'll keep my eyes open in Japan. No license required here for these. I like those without a trigger guard, smaller calibers.

Anyone on the forum own any to show off?

 

Brian

[Guido]

Jacques,

 

yet another self-serving post, in line with your desire to be controversial.

 

You're presenting a replica of a rare matchlock pistol of German / Polish design. Yes, they were made in Europe, but only a very few. Fact is that they were much more popular in India and Japan. Just go to this link http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Campg ... earms.html and scroll down - they say almost exactly what I wrote.

[Bugyotsuji]

Guido, yes, that's the page where I originally got the info, and it was India, (not Iran), thank you. Jacques, no problem! I knew there were some, but I've never seen an example.

 

Brian, perhaps Ian would know the best book in English on the subject.

 

I have Sugawa Sensei's books 1 & 2, both in Japanese and in English, and they were my stock handbooks for quite a while as they have many illustrations from his collection. His editor seems to have missed several translation howlers (?) to the point where you can't really rely on the facts & figures or categorizations, but they are good books to have to hand as he is such an eager enthusiast.

 

Did you ever read Noel Perrin's Giving Up The Gun, BTW?

http://www.amazon.com/Giving-Up-Gun-Rev ... 988&sr=8-1

[Guido]

No license required here for these.

They need a license in Japan, and have to go through the same procedure as swords when you want to export them.

[Brian]

Yep, but shouldn't be a problem to deregister as you would any sword, wait the required amount of time and have it shipped.

I know they use the same torokusho as the swords. Saw some nice ones for sale in Kyoto, but prices were as expected, and probably worth it.

Still swords remain my focus, but they did play such a huge part in Japanese history and the Samurai. Go nicely together for display and study.

 

Brian

[Guido]

Brian, no problem indeed, but it takes time , so you can't take it back with you personally when you visit Japan. Since Tanegashima are not as popular as swords, you might get one for a very reasonable price. I saw some in the 300,000 Yen range that were quite collectable.

[Bugyotsuji]

As it's Monday here in the UK, I thought I would quickly post a recent acquisition. Ian and I posted pics of our Muna-ate, or chest protectors, not too long ago, but I can't find the actual posts. You will have seen an example or two in leather, in Sugawa's homepage above, no doubt, which reminded me.

 

I had the original one with the crossed feathers Mon, possibly from Aki in Hiroshima, or maybe Ako Castle in Hyogo Prefecture. Nothing missing and pretty fair condition, considering its age. Very small, though!

 

A friend who knows that I like (and to some extent collect) Kuyou-Mon, or nine-heavenly bodies Mon, recently found this set of Muna-ate and headband at a dealers' auction for me. The neckstrap and obi-stoppers were missing and they were generally in tatters, but with a bit of application and careful study of the original border stitching, my wife was able to repair this set quite presentably.

 

They are made of cloth and some kind of felt, and would never stop a bullet.

[Bugyotsuji]

Brian, no problem indeed, but it takes time , so you can't take it back with you personally when you visit Japan. Since Tanegashima are not as popular as swords, you might get one for a very reasonable price. I saw some in the 300,000 Yen range that were quite collectable.

 

Yes, Guido, this figure of yours of 300,000 is exactly what they cost nowadays, especially since the recession. You might get one for 250,000 and you might find one at 400,000, but anything above that and the dealer is either a blagger or he's trying to get his old pre-bubble money back, or he's got something super-special.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Jacques,

 

yet another self-serving post, in line with your desire to be controversial.

 

You're presenting a replica of a rare matchlock pistol of German / Polish design. Yes, they were made in Europe, but only a very few. Fact is that they were much more popular in India and Japan. Just go to this link http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Campg ... earms.html and scroll down - they say almost exactly what I wrote.

 

No, i dont' want to be controversial, i just want to restore the verity. Pistols were worn by the argoulets (horse men) during the reign of Louis XI. Pistols are used by french soldiers at the battle of Cerisoles (1544). In fact matchlock pistols will quickly change in steel-lock pistols but the system of ignition is the same.

 

A very good book about pistols:

 

HISTOIRE DU PISTOLET by Joseph de florentis (in french)

 

Probably the first kind of pistol

 

 

And no arguing in my words :D

[Bugyotsuji]

A good read, and amusing about having to get off the horse before shooting! Thanks, Jacques. So, these are really cavalry pieces, or shortened long guns, as opposed to pistols per se.

 

Both were in fashion in Japan, but even today the smaller and shorter they are, the more they seem to be valued. An overall length of under 30 cm is best, if my memory serves me.