Bugyotsuji Posted July 9, 2012 Author Report Posted July 9, 2012 :lol: Thanks, but it's only treasure to very few and far-between folk. To most people (like my wife) it is junk. Oh, and this house could never be called modern...
estcrh Posted July 9, 2012 Report Posted July 9, 2012 Piers, maybe you can answer this, something like your hachi-maki is seen as a matched set with haori and muneate. I often see these sets with the jackets being called kaji baori, kaji haori or even jinbaori, the item which looks like your hachi-maki is called by several different names and it is alternately pictured as a belt or a head band, can you shed any light on this item, here are some pictures. http://www.sanmei.com/contents/en-us/d35.html Japanese overgarment JINBAORI, MUNEATE and ATEOBI set of three colors, Three colors complete 9 pcs sets of Overgarment, Apron and Headband http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Navy-Co ... 259wt_1164 Antique Navy Cotton SAMURAI Jin-Baori, Mune-Ate, Hachimaki http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/kosode/42.htm The firefighting dress of samurai consists of following items: a "jingasa" hat or a "kabuto" helmet, a "kaji-haori" hjacket, a "mune-ate" protector, an "ate-obi" belt and "no-bakama" trousers (the each item has family crests).
Bugyotsuji Posted July 9, 2012 Author Report Posted July 9, 2012 Ate-obi? No Eric, I am sorry, although I think I have seen archers wearing something similar. When we go for Koshiki Hojutsu Shodan shiken, we wear Dogi with proper muneate and hachimaki. The Hakama has a stiff upright back section built into it. As to this Ate-obi, I will ask about it tomorrow as I am meeting a group of armor/armour experts and curators. (Unless Ian or someone answers first.)
estcrh Posted July 10, 2012 Report Posted July 10, 2012 I have always thought that these were head bands, I have this one and it looks like a head band more than an obi.
Bugyotsuji Posted July 10, 2012 Author Report Posted July 10, 2012 You beat me to it, Eric. That is beautiful. Only just got back. In the car they were explaining that these things came along towards the end of Edo to decorate the back of the waist/belt. Many people see them and try to wear them as a Hachi-maki, but they are are too large and it looks funny, they were saying. I am just working on my travelling Jinbaori. You saw the replacement ivory button I made for it? The top of the sword slit at the back often used to rip upwards, so they had two or three ways of reinforcing the top of the divide. I have made a white leather triangle and fixed an agemaki-no-kan brass ring on a chrysanthemum base to it, and I was just about to start sewing when I saw your timely post! :D
Bugyotsuji Posted July 10, 2012 Author Report Posted July 10, 2012 Some hours later. The project is finished, (apart from some ageing) but now I am wondering whether Jinbaori go under Katchu (yes, I know they go over Katchu! ) or whether I should file the report here. Today was magical. It's a long story, but the Osafune Sword Museum has been experimenting with unusual exhibits in order to draw more visitors. Last summer they did a "Sengoku Basara" Anime/Manga display mixed with real Sengoku armour/swords and they got 42,000 visitors, greater than the total population of Osafune. This summer it will be Evangelion, and we are to provide entertainment and again some weird and wonderful artefacts as background. Today we made a trip to Kansai to choose some Kawari Kabuto and unusual/rare menpo. I was overwhelmed by the variety out there. (Actually I was along for the ride and helped out carrying stuff...) A special "ロンギヌスの槍" "Lance of Longinus" has been fashioned and it will be auctioned off to the highest bidder, I believe.
Bugyotsuji Posted July 10, 2012 Author Report Posted July 10, 2012 Well, here goes nothing. Cutting out all the intermediate steps, here are the before and after pics.
Bugyotsuji Posted July 10, 2012 Author Report Posted July 10, 2012 To do this, you'll need to: See some pictures or actual examples of Jinbaori to see how it looked. Find some strong material, ie hemp cloth, or something like the piece of white leather that I used. Cut a triangle with some heavy scissors. Buy or requisition an agemaki cord with tassel, and the brass seat and ring (Kan). Use a punch to make holes in the leather for the needle and for the folding 'legs' of the Kan. Figure a way to stop the ring from swivelling left or right. Either sew the legs flat or use some kind of bond. Find some thread that color/colour matches something, in this case the green\gold border. Do double stitching all round, although I have not studied what stitching might have been best. (I am still considering whether to sew down the triangle corners more comprehensively, say with two loops for each corner.) This Jinbaori has no inner lining to it, so I simply stitched the triangle to the exterior, with no corresponding inner triangle, without worrying that the stitches will show through inside. The most difficult bit was attaching the agemaki without undoing the stiff cord and tassels. By loosening the bows of the knot I was able to gather enough extra into the top loop to push everything through it and then straighten out and tighten the 'Tombo Juji' bow knot. I was advised to burn the Kan with a cigarette lighter to add age to it, but at this point I hesitated. PS Photos available on request.
estcrh Posted July 10, 2012 Report Posted July 10, 2012 Piers, thanks a lot for clearing up the ate-obi question, I have wondered about that for a long time, any idea if those sets were actually intended for use in fires exclusively or were they used for other purposes, I have seen images of people firing tanegashima in modern times wearing what seems to be the exact clothing. Nice work on the jinbaori, looks like it was always there, is that a repair I see at the top near the neck. In the west people use jinbaori only for sleeveless jackets but I notice in Japan jinbaori seems to include jackets with sleeves also.
Bugyotsuji Posted July 10, 2012 Author Report Posted July 10, 2012 Eric, yes, there were/are many types of Haori, including the Kaji (firefighting) Haori that you mention. The over coat of a kimono can be called a Haori. I found in the dictionary that Jinbaori was usually an officer's over coat, with sleeves, and a slit at the back for the end of the sword saya to protrude through. There were versions including a lower ranked soldier's one called a Jinbei and another called a Kanbei. They usually have sleeves, but as you say, sleeveless ones can be called haori if they are a kind of over jacket. I bought this one for 5,000 JP yen some weeks ago, and my wife then spent many hours repairing the holes and rents in it. Well spotted. I supplied her with the Ai-zome (indigo) cloth for the patches. She applied a complete white section around the bottom as it was too far gone. It needs a final ironing as the natural folds have worked themselves out. She took 2,000 JPY off me for the work she did. The ivory button to close the front finger flaps took me about 3 hours to fashion; the old one was badly degraded. Boring two opposed tiny shallow holes in the back like Netsuke himotoshi holes took infinite patience and nerve.
estcrh Posted July 10, 2012 Report Posted July 10, 2012 Piers, does this look familiar to you? 時代物、「九曜紋」入、火消装束、3点セットです。鉢巻・腹掛・上衣。鉢巻 縦 約8センチ、横 約33センチ（紐含 約145センチ）。腹掛 縦 約 52センチ、横 約29.5センチ。上衣 縦 約100センチ、横 約64センチ（袖～袖 約131センチ）。有る旧家に眠っていた物です。多くの大名家に 関りの有る「九曜紋」が入っており、当初は「飛脚装束」かとも思いましたが、有る識者の方より「火消装束」では無いかと伺いましたので、敢てそ の説で表記いたします。かなり古い物の様ですが年代詳細不明。シミ・汚れ・カビなど少し有り。虫食いの小穴が少々有り。敢て出てきたそのまま 出品させて戴きます。地はしっかりとしており、保存状態は悪くは無いと思います。見栄え良く、使える楽しめる良品だと思います。御解かりになる 方、御興味の有る方、如何でしょうか。あくまで古い物ですので、ノークレーム・ノーリターンで御願い致します。 ＊Other、各種・多数出品しております。宜しかったら、一度覗いて観て下さい。*
Bugyotsuji Posted July 10, 2012 Author Report Posted July 10, 2012 Ah, now that is excellent, Eric. My gun is a Kuyomon, so I like this pattern, although that one is described as a fireman's jacket. Now I am beginning to wonder about mine, ... :lol: In for a penny, in for a pound. Here are some intermediate shots. 1. The leather and ring fitment. 2. The stitching process
Bugyotsuji Posted July 10, 2012 Author Report Posted July 10, 2012 Eric, I think we are beginning to sing off the same songsheet. Do these look familiar to you?
estcrh Posted July 10, 2012 Report Posted July 10, 2012 Piers, did the muneate and are-obi come with your haori, they look like a match. Any way of finding out if those haori with matching muneate and ate-obi were specifically meant for fires or if thats just a word thrown out by sellers.
Bugyotsuji Posted July 10, 2012 Author Report Posted July 10, 2012 Eric, this is another area where I need to study to find the answers. Firemen's clothes often have a stripe or band of a different color/colour in them. As to sleeves or lack of, I was talking rubbish earlier. There were sleeveless jinbaori through which you could show off your kote greaves. You earlier comment about how the new addition looks natural was a great compliment. Thanks, and good night!
Bugyotsuji Posted July 10, 2012 Author Report Posted July 10, 2012 Oops, iPhone keyboard hard to use. No, the muneate and hachimaki I have had for some years and used them for my Shodan Shiken in ancient gunnery, Koshiki Hojutsu. They are old but my wife remade the borders.
estcrh Posted July 11, 2012 Report Posted July 11, 2012 No, the muneate and hachimakiI have had for some years and used them for my Shodan Shiken in ancient gunnery, Koshiki Hojutsu. They are old but my wife remade the borders. Piers now I am confused, is it a head band or a belt?
Bugyotsuji Posted July 11, 2012 Author Report Posted July 11, 2012 This is a link to the Evangelion event running from mid July to mid September at the Osafune Sword Museum. Several swords and a "Lance of Longinus" have been specially made by Bizen smiths for the event. http://axefactory.blog137.fc2.com/blog-entry-572.html (Eric, please don't be confused. Let's look at this slowly and rationally. I will try and get some exact measurements for the two bands.) 1
Bugyotsuji Posted July 11, 2012 Author Report Posted July 11, 2012 I know many of the members must be perplexed and surely making a mental note to avoid Osafune this summer. Well, imagine the rift in the sword community there. Still, the museum was approached by a large organization last summer and it turned out to be a financial success, as well as an introduction and learning opportunity for many young people who would not otherwise have come into contact with their own culture directly like this. What is also interesting is to see otherwise serious members of the community who, once the decision was made to go ahead with this thing for better or for worse, have thrown themselves into making sure that it is a viable blend of old and new, and of reality and fantasy, which with something for everyone, will draw whole families to the event. http://image.search.yahoo.co.jp/search? ... E%E6%A7%8D 1
Brian Posted July 11, 2012 Report Posted July 11, 2012 That is very cool! I think many of us have a soft spot for anime and manga. Brian 1
estcrh Posted July 12, 2012 Report Posted July 12, 2012 Here is another three piece haori set from a well known Japanese dealer, this one is labeled as a travel coat I believe, the translation mentions "belly band". 源氏車紋の道中羽織。腹当と帯がついており状態も良い。 Douchuu Haori, Edo period, Genjiguruma crest coat along the way. Good condition and equipped with this belly band.
Bugyotsuji Posted July 12, 2012 Author Report Posted July 12, 2012 Eric, compare that with this translation. 源氏車紋の道中羽織。腹当と帯がついており状態も良い。 Travel haori with Genji wheel Mon. Comes with bib "Stomach" cover (Japanese Hara-ate is a mistake and should be Muna-ate or Mune-ate) "Chest piece" (although it does indeed cover both chest and stomach!) and sash, in good condition overall. I am still wondering if there is really a difference, or is it simply the length of cloth attached to it that defines where it is tied? PS I have heard these described as Doh-chu Baori, which seems to indicate for Bushi to wear on trips eg Sankin Kotai to Edo and back.
IanB Posted July 13, 2012 Report Posted July 13, 2012 All, A very interesting discussion on what, only 150 years ago, would have been items in common usage. I have generally read and / or noted that these matching sets of haori, muneate and belt cover, were worn, with the appropriate 'helmet' and cape for supervising fire fighting. That said, sets seem to be thin on the ground with a matching cape. In cases like this, I usually turn to that treasure house of specimens and information, the Tokugawa Art Museum in Nagoya. In their catalogue items 247 and 248 are, respectively, a helmet and hood, and the haori and belt cover. Since only the back of the haori is shown it is not clear if there is a muneate. Items 249 and 250 show the helmet and hood, the haori and muneate but not the belt cover. The helmets of both sets have double layers of fabric making up the hood. In the first case the fabric matching the haori, a dull blue woollen cloth, is underneath with an outer layer in yellow and red cloth. In the second case, the under layer is yellow, the matching outer cloth, in purple, is on top and forms a short curtain below the rim of the helmet. Both outfits, and a third without a helmet, are described as being for fire. This is substantiated by the fact that woollen cloth has been used. That said, I see no reason why such splendid garments should not have been worn during a daimyo gyoretsu, although the ones in Nagoya belonged to the Tokugawa so would never have been put to such a use. I have also seen a couple of muneate that were so elaborate, one with gold and coloured silk applique embroidery of tigers in bamboo, that you would hesitate to wear it never mind trot off to fight fires. I have also seen muneate being worn by guys shooting guns, to keep their clothing from being burned or soiled by sparks and soot. I shouldn't wonder that muneate were common wear on any occasion where there was a need to keep the clothes clean. Ian Bottomley
Lorenzo Posted July 13, 2012 Report Posted July 13, 2012 What a coincidence Piers, asked just yesterday to Katayama san what was about that spear. He said it was done by an Hiroshima tosho named Mikami and a knife maker named Hashimoto
Lorenzo Posted July 13, 2012 Report Posted July 13, 2012 Ah Piers, can I ask you to invite out for a dinner the 3 girls on your link above the next time we meet there? I count on it
Bugyotsuji Posted July 14, 2012 Author Report Posted July 14, 2012 Not willing to be caught writing on Friday the thirteenth! Ian, may thanks for the valuable thoughts. Lorenzo, how funny! I have heard that the spear is made of various alloys so as not to fall foul of the laws which would normally require such a thing to be legally registered and papered as a viable weapon. As to the date, let's do it. All I need now is the wife's permission.
estcrh Posted July 16, 2012 Report Posted July 16, 2012 Piers and Ian, I personally think that the three piece haori sets were used for several different purposes. I have seen many fire capes and helmets, and many of the three piece haori sets but I can not remember ever seeing a matching cape, helmet, haori combo come up for sale. The three piece set I have is made from a luxurious golden see through material that made me wonder from the day I saw it how why anyone would go near a fire in it. Ians mention of the daimyo gyoretsu makes more sense. While mine is packed away I distinctly remember trying to wear the belt/headband as a head band and it was rather stiff and large for that even though it looks like it should be a head band, I cant remember how long the cord is but next time I am near it I will see if it is long enough to be worn as a belt. When I google hachi maki I find images like this in period prints.
Baka Gaijin Posted July 16, 2012 Report Posted July 16, 2012 Hi Eric, Hachimaki vs Tenugui Check this out: http://johnmarshall.to/blog/2011/07/10/ ... %E3%81%84/ Cheers
Bugyotsuji Posted July 16, 2012 Author Report Posted July 16, 2012 Eric, try playing with Hitai-ate (forehead pad), or Tatami (folding) hitai-ate. http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukushoku/f_disp.p ... no=0000153
estcrh Posted July 16, 2012 Report Posted July 16, 2012 Hi Eric, Hachimaki vs Tenugui Check this out: http://johnmarshall.to/blog/2011/07/10/ ... %E3%81%84/ Cheers Malcolm good link as usual, here is a quote from the site which I think most people on the forum can understand. Isn’t it interesting how something one person will dismiss without a glance, another person will see as a rare treasure?
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