This Week's Edo Period Corner

[kusunokimasahige]

Hey Piers, yes it is. I actually clicked on Stephens link just now xD

 

Quite a nice video, but the percussion cap theory for the 15th century is total nonsense imho...

 

 

KM

[Bugyotsuji]

Ha yes, they are having fun! (Saw that clip once before.)

 

The gun is clearly a modern Chinese repro with modern nipples that it should not have had, so as you say percussion caps are ludicrous either way. It obviously works better with percussion caps though, a 'modern' modification. To locate touch-holes with a heated wire or a lit match while at a gallop must have taken some doing.

[kusunokimasahige]

True, it did not look like an ancient cannon at all.

 

I think multi barreled medieval hand cannon highly likely were not used from horseback, at least not the medieval ones.

 

Pepperbox guns probably were.

 

 

KM

[Bugyotsuji]

Henk-Jan, I have a copy of an old Chinese MS showing three-barrelled guns being used both on horseback and on foot.

[kusunokimasahige]

Ah cool !! would love to see those images.

 

Could they have been used with just one running fuse ?

 

KM

[Bugyotsuji]

The idea of a running fuse is good. Chinese firecrackers have traditionally been set off by a single lighted fuse, after all.

 

In the illustration (very poor I am afraid, but I'll see if I can get a shot from another source) the gunner seems to be holding a wooden (?) spatula pre-serpentine with a hot wire, burning match or fuse attached, so as not to burn the hand, and perhaps placed against the back of the barrel section to give an accurate rocking down of the match to the touch-hole?

 

I did not want to use this illustration as I suspect the author of a certain book has made a composite drawing from the originals, to get two into one. At least it is clearer and quotes the original source, even if doctored! :lol:

 

On the left above the group seems to have a Chinese or captured Japanese matchlock.

[estcrh]

Chinese matchlocks, here are a couple of images and a link to an interesting site with information on Chinese matchlocks etc.

 

http://chinese-gun.freewebspace.com/photo.html

 

[IanB]

To learn what was going on in China during the early years of firearm development, you must read Joseph Needham's book called the Gunpowder Epic. He trawled through just about every reference, in both the West and in China, that refers to the subject. What comes across clearly is that although the Chinese invented gunpowder, and eventually managed to make the mixture explode, their early guns were really tubes containing powder with the missiles embedded within it that when ignited, spewed out flames and the small missiles like a volcano. In other words the burning powder blew out of the muzzle, since it was the only exit, carrying the balls or other missiles with it. It was only later that the idea of using the burning powder to build up a high pressure behind a tightly fitted missile was devised. Needham also shows a Chinese illustration of a gun imported by the Portuguese that has a stock and lock exactly like those used in Japan - showing that the Japanese contributed very little to the equation other than eliminating screws and simplifying the construction slightly. For some reason the Chinese really failed to adopt this version of the gun, making matchlocks based on Turkish prototypes (as did the Indians, except those made in Coorge near the Portuguese base of Goa) in which the serpentine is linked directly to the trigger, rather than the snapping matchlock where it is operated by a spring.

Most surviving Chinese matchlocks are startling in their crudity, except for the odd barrel - which I suspect were reused from earlier, better made guns. All of the three barrelled guns illustrated above are Korean / Chinese - but how many are real is a matter of debate.

As for the video - where do they get these 'experts' and what do the 'tests' prove? The moment you introduce percussion caps you alter the way the powder burns, since they spurt a flame into the body of the charge. These guys also insist on using modern black powder, a far cry from the composition and physical form used in these early guns.

Ian Bottomley

[kusunokimasahige]

Very interesting Ian, will go take a look if they have the book at our Univ. Library.

 

Indeed many of the "eastern" blackpowder guns (Matchlock, flintlock, percussion) I see at auction here, whether they be Indian, Afghan, Slavic, Turkish and even Arab, seem to look as if they were made by some amateur.

 

That is, compared to Western guns of about the same era. I am not sure why this is.

 

Also, the video I posted was meant merely for fun. It was quite a nice video, and not an interesting or even

scientific one. It is of course a fact that medieval black powder and modern black powder are totally different grades

of black powder. That was shown in one of the Myth busters episodes where they compared hand made black powder and

industrial grade powder. It even burned with a different speed.

 

I have not yet seen any Chinese musket in action I must say, nor the multi barreled arrow and bullet throwers you at times see depicted. Anyone with information on experiments done with these weapons, please post some !

 

KM

[Viper6924]

Here´s two gunpowder cases I stumbled upon on the net. One suppose to be Japanese (the one standing up) and the other one chinese. For a non-pro like myself it´s not easy to spot the which one is what. Any obvious clues to look for? I rather like the "Japanese" one.

 

/Jan

[Bugyotsuji]

Jan, Japanese ones usually follow one of two or three patterns. The top one which you have labelled Japanese fits the profile on its own of a bulk/coarse powder flask with a measure built into the pourer. How large is it? Pretty rough condition. :lol:

 

As an ensemble it also fits the Japanese pattern. It would hang from the belt or obi stopped from slipping by the nutlike Netsuke. The string usually had a large slider bead called an Ojime between the Netsuke and the Sagemono, or hanging object.

The Netsuke can be easily tucked behind the Obi waistband, and easily removed as necessary.

 

The bottom one is out of my area, but it exhibits little of the typical Japanese signature, although I have seen some very rough hunters' equipment in leather. Depending on the size it could be either a coarse powder flask or possibly a priming powder flask. To my eyes it could be Korean or Chinese, or even something else like Eskimo, designed simply to do a job with little in the way of decoration.

[Viper6924]

Well used :lol: The height is about 12 cm.

 

/Jan

[Viper6924]

Here´s a Yoshitoshi-print from his Kinsei Kyogiden-series I just picked up. I have a couple of his later prints. But this one will find a nice spot in the teppo-section of my collection.

Intresting bulge on the stock near the muzzle. Haven´t seen that shape on any real teppo that I can remember. Perhaps some artistic freedom. Just wish I could read the story

 

/Jan

[Bugyotsuji]

Jan, well done, you've found a nice print there. In my limited experience, there are not so many Ukiyo-e showing teppo, and many of the ones that do exist, exhibit artist's license. Yours seems to be more accurate. Very envious. Can you show a closer shot of the gun itself?

 

What you noticed there is not a bulge, but the actual size/thickness of the stock. That gun has a section cut away for the left-hand grip, and to lose weight, and then before the lock it resumes the same natural thickness again (hidden by his left hand). Normally not really visible, the artist has probably exaggerated a feature of the gun that he used as a model.

[estcrh]

Indeed many of the "eastern" blackpowder guns (Matchlock, flintlock, percussion) I see at auction here, whether they be Indian, Afghan, Slavic, Turkish and even Arab, seem to look as if they were made by some amateur. That is, compared to Western guns of about the same era. I am not sure why this is.

I have noticed that to, even the plain unadorned tanegashima have the same basic workmanship as the more highly decorated ones but other cultures seem to have a much wider disparity between their higher level matchlocks and the basic ones. Here is a picture of an Indian matchlock supposedly from around the 1700's, its pretty basic.

[watsonmil]

Dear Jan and Piers,

I think what Jan ( thickening of the stock ) is pointing out is near the muzzle not anywhere near his left hand. I too have never seen a stock with this bulge/thickening near the muzzle. I would chalk it up to artistic license. The rest of the gun looks fairly accurate for a woodblock print.

... Ron Watson

 

EDIT: See my later posting and photograph.

[Baka Gaijin]

Good afternoon Jan,

 

I'm away from my reference sources, but your print is of a character named Shirataki Sashichi from the Tonegawa turf war, where a group of Fishermen rebelled against corrupt officials.

The bloody affair was well documented and one of the characters was the inspiration for Zatoichi

 

The original print run for the series was between: 1865 - 1866 in Ōban size

Signed: Kaisai Yoshitoshi hitsu with the Kiri seal

Published by Iseki of Manyō-dō

Block carver - Hori Ōta Tashichi

Printer: Kōrai

 

You could try to find a copy of Roger. S. Keyes,

"Courage and Silence: A Study of the Life and Color - Woodblock Prints of Tsukioka Yoshitoshi 1839-1892",

Published Cinncinnati, 1982.

 

This link should help:

 

http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/yosha/nn ... i_den.html

 

Cheers

[Viper6924]

Thanks for the great info, Malcom. And the link. Very useful. It´s always more fun when You know a little bit of the background.

Here´s a closer shot of the gun. Remarkable details when You really look at it. At least for a true friend of teppos...

 

Jan

[watsonmil]

Dear Jan,

Now that you have blown up the photos, ... it becomes more obvious that what the artist is attempting to illustrate is the thinning of the stock on some guns for 1. lightening the gun somewhat, 2. aiding the shooter with a more comfortable grip on the stock. See photo attached. Please excuse the poor photo quality, ... but I think you will see what I mean.

... Ron Watson

[Viper6924]

Your right, Ron. The artist gave the subject in the print a custom made stock. I also reflect on the length of the gun. Almost of Hazama-size. The butt of the gun is cut in a rather unusual way. And if You really want to go in to further details, the hammer seems to hit a bit off. Almost at the hinge of the pancover. Amazing what You can find from one print on a humid saturday night :D

 

Jan

[watsonmil]

Dear Jan,

You have a good eye ! Yes, ... he is QUITE A BIT OFF with his serpentine strike ! Perhaps this is why he is leaning so far ahead saying to himself, ... " Damn I couldn't have missed, ... Did I hear a bang or didn't I ?? " . As for the unusual butt, ... I have a Tanegashima with an almost identical butt shape. The gun is a normal length. It must be a very quiet night in Stockholm ! I think your woodblock print is wonderful.

... Ron Watson

[Baka Gaijin]

Good morning Jan,

 

I'm back with my reference sources now and can add a little bit more to the details of your print.

 

The script that forms the major part of the top third of your print was written by the novellist Arindo Sansantei and through the entire series of Kinsei Kyogi Den tells a stirring tale of betrayal, revenge and honour lost and found.

 

Arindo's an interesting character and was quite successful in another literary form... the sub genre of Ninjōbon 人情本, which concerned itself with young love and was aimed at a female readership.

 

I have the book reprint of Kinsei Kyogi Den (published 1918) which is devoid of Arindo's script, with what amounts to a hack rewrite possibly by Ogawa Enson who is named as editor. However, in this form it's very much the forerunner of a modern Manga.

 

To get an idea of the style of writing that the woodblocks contain, I'd heartily recommend Jippensha Ikku's "Shank's Mare" or to give it its proper title: Tōkaidōchū Hizakurige (東海道中膝栗毛) or Hizakurige, which is a picaresque tale of two vagabonds on the Tokaido.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Hizakurige-Shanks ... B0018T6UAG

 

I'd also recommend Donald Keene's masterwork on the history of literary forms in the Edo period.

 

http://www.amazon.com/World-Within-Wall ... 94-17074-1.

 

There you go Jan, that should give you something to read when the days get shorter

 

Cheers

[Viper6924]

It was a very slow and painfully hot night, Ron! Best place to endure was my basement where I happen to keep my computer

Malcom, a big thanks for the added info. Stocking up on some good books for the winter is always a good thing to do even if those cold days feels a bit far away right now...

 

Jan

[Bugyotsuji]

Hmmm... how to preserve the wishy-washy nature of this thread? It seems to be almost impossible to go off topic, but there are flows to it. At present we seem to be an a phase of guns and illustrations such as Ukiyo-e.

 

Just recently there has been an influx of odd bits into the nets of the Bugyotsuji which I might add if there is any interest. These include some splendid Natsukawa fans, about which I am tempted to start a different thread. Then I found three little Kutani stemmed goblets, a set of hibachi chopsticks with mekugi hammer designs on the ends, two unusual ceramic Netsuke, a girl's silken tasselled purse for the obi, some brass edge-strengtherners/decorations for the edges/corners of armor/armour sections (shikoro, nodowa, etc.) and a hachi-maki forehead band possibly for a gunner to wear on the field of battle. It never rains but it pours. Is it the weather?

[estcrh]

Hmmm... how to preserve the wishy-washy nature of this thread?

How about "Edo period corner II", so were is that hachi-maki you mentioned?

[Bugyotsuji]

How about "Edo period corner II", so where is that hachi-maki you mentioned?

 

:lol: I'll take some shots of the hachimaki later then.

[watsonmil]

Dear Piers,

Far be it from any of us to discourage you from changing the topic of this thread. By all means bring on the photos and further the discussion on a different subject.

... Ron Watson

[Bugyotsuji]

http://colorisonline.com/japon/okayama01.html

"Natsukawa Uchiwa fan, Natsukawa Uchiwa were first produced by vassals of the 17th Century feudal lord in Niwase, the Itakura family. Utilizing the naturally rounded shape of bamboo, Natsukawa fans have cloud-shaped patterns called Utatsugi on the upper edges and images of nature on the lower part. Each fan is accompanied by a specially chosen Haiku poem. The Natsukawa Uchiwa is one of Japan’s most refined and subtle arts."

 

The story I was told is that Samurai would make these at home in the Edo Period in order to supplement the family income.

The fans are translucent, with the picture, the poem and the maker's seal and signature sandwiched between super thin veils of paper, and appearing more clearly when held up to the light. The ragged edge of the clouds is actually a haiku poem.

http://japanartsandcrafts.com/fcouc6.html

 

On Saturday I came across three of these in an antiques warehouse and just had to have all of them, especially at the ridiculously low price he quoted! A great present for people back home.

[Bugyotsuji]

This is the Hachi-maki, the acquiring of which is an amusing story in itself. There were three of us in the room, and one guy said "choose between you who will get this". I told my friend to hold out his hand, which he did. I then made my fingers into 'chokki' the scissors, which automatically wins against 'Pa' or paper, so I took it, much to his chagrin.

 

Then the first bloke said, "It is not always the first person who wins", and produced an even better one in deep blue with an Omodaka Mon in gold thread. "This is for you" he said, handing it to my 'friend'... grrr....

[cabowen]

I know I have said this before, but I can't help wonder how you can store all of this treasure in a modern Japanese home!

 

Perhaps we are seeing the genesis of a new Japanese tv version of "Hoarders"???

 

Nice finds, by the way!