Bugyotsuji Posted June 23, 2012 Author Report Posted June 23, 2012 It belongs to a friend and according to the writing on the back it is a 象限儀 zogengi, or quadrant... the same as a gunner's level? I assumed it was Japanese, but it could easily be European or a copy of a foreign one. Will search for a mark on it tomorrow if I get a moment, as I have to go round there again.
watsonmil Posted June 23, 2012 Report Posted June 23, 2012 Dear Piers, I would say that for laymen, ... the level or quadrant accomplish the same task, and the two words are often inter-changeable. The gunner's level enabled the elevation of a gun to be measured. Like the gunner's quadrant, a plumb bob provides a reading against a scale. However, whereas the gunner's quadrant is inserted into the mouth of the gun - exposing its user to enemy fire - the level is set up more safely at the breech end of the barrel. ... Ron Watson
Lindus Posted June 23, 2012 Report Posted June 23, 2012 Friend just emailed a link to this,sadly $120k is just around 118k to much for my pocket. Named Gun, Ki-Irohi "TheYellow-Fire Gun" Gold Tokugawa Mons on each of Three-Barrels Intricate inlay in gold and silver Signed: Sato Bun-kichi Yoshisada Saku Signed on each Barrel: Barrel 1): Kishu Ju Barrel 2): Ryu Moku-kon Barrel 3): Hachiro Saku
Lindus Posted June 23, 2012 Report Posted June 23, 2012 Even this Cannon at $4000 would sit well in front of the fire but Roy
watsonmil Posted June 23, 2012 Report Posted June 23, 2012 Dear Roy, An interesting three barreled Tanegashima, .... but obviously Meiji period or an out and out fraud. Note the beautifully machined screws on the pan covers ( Edo period Matchlocks did not utilize screws, and if at the very end of the Edo period a few smiths were using screws, ... certainly NOT of this counter sunk high quality. Most of the three barreled Japanese guns are considered to be spurious. Ian correct me if I'm wrong. Next the very small crocodile cannon is most likely Indonesian and also of questionable age, as these castings were made for the tourist trade right up until quite recent, ... and for that matter may still be. ... Ron Watson
Lindus Posted June 23, 2012 Report Posted June 23, 2012 Dear Roy, An interesting three barreled Tanegashima, .... but obviously Meiji period or an out and out fraud. Note the beautifully machined screws on the pan covers ( Edo period Matchlocks did not utilize screws, and if at the very end of the Edo period a few smiths were using screws, ... certainly NOT of this counter sunk high quality. Most of the three barreled Japanese guns are considered to be spurious. Ian correct me if I'm wrong. Next the very small crocodile cannon is most likely Indonesian and also of questionable age, as these castings were made for the tourist trade right up until quite recent, ... and for that matter may still be. ... Ron Watson As both are on an up market US dealer site you may well be correct on both,just thought at the price offered it was fun{Or may not be so!!} Roy
estcrh Posted June 23, 2012 Report Posted June 23, 2012 Thanks for the info on the three barreled tanegashima, not much on these any were else. I did find this which looks to be like the ones Ian described (vines etc).
Bugyotsuji Posted June 24, 2012 Author Report Posted June 24, 2012 Just saw two today, the one I showed above (in its new home), and a three-barrelled percussion cap version which looked quite business-like. The butt is Ogino-Ryu school.
IanB Posted June 24, 2012 Report Posted June 24, 2012 Piers, That looks a serious bit of kit although I bet it is very muzzle-heavy. Ian Bottomley
estcrh Posted June 25, 2012 Report Posted June 25, 2012 Piers, the metal looks very smooth and I see slotted heads, any idea how old it is.
estcrh Posted June 25, 2012 Report Posted June 25, 2012 I was sent some images of a tanegashima pistol, the stock looks real but the barrel looks cast, any thoughts.
Bugyotsuji Posted June 25, 2012 Author Report Posted June 25, 2012 Eric, the three-barrelled gun has unabashed Western influence in it, starting with the very solid locking system for the percussion caps and the massively powerful spring for the striker. Whether Japan had already opened up or whether it was the interim time of huge quantities of imported weapons and subsequent experimentation, we cannot realistically be looking at earlier than the 1860s. It carries the hand of traditional craftsmanship, but it is plainly a very late gun. Personally I do not like anything later than matchlocks. Japanese collectors will divide into matchlock purists and then those for whom any gun goes. There is a famous collector in Yamaguchi who specializes in this Bakumatsu period and all the weird and wonderful things that were being carried/lugged around.
Bugyotsuji Posted June 25, 2012 Author Report Posted June 25, 2012 Hard to be certain from those photos, in this case they are too good! We cannot see the wood for the trees! There are several odd things about what we can see of this gun. The serpentine seems to have been rebuilt oddly at the bottom end. What kind of mechanism is concealed there? The Bisen screw looks solid to the barrel. What is that ridge line down the other side of the barrel? It may have been cast , but the casting looks different from anything I have seen before. The muzzle looks as thought it may have been sawn short. Too many flags. Puzzling. If this was offered for sale, I would walk straight past it. Life is short.
estcrh Posted June 25, 2012 Report Posted June 25, 2012 Piers, I saw either this same one at the 2011 San Francisco sword show or there are more than one of these, the ridge on the barrel runs down both sides and rests on the stock, I do not think there is a bizen as the head seems to be part of the barrel, have you ever seen a serpentine on a tanegashima with a hole rather than a slot? If not cast then what, its a strange one.
estcrh Posted June 29, 2012 Report Posted June 29, 2012 Here are some close up images of the three barrel tanegashima shown previously. (I added the original two images)
Bugyotsuji Posted June 29, 2012 Author Report Posted June 29, 2012 This one looks good, Eric, but can you provide a link to remind us again which gun it was. I've been going backwards through this thread, but couldn't find it. We have the luxury now of so many to choose from!!! :lol:
estcrh Posted June 29, 2012 Report Posted June 29, 2012 This one looks good, Eric, but can you provide a link to remind us again which gun it was. I've been going backwards through this thread, but couldn't find it. We have the luxury now of so many to choose from!!! :lol:Piers I added the original two images to the close ups. Here is an image I posted earlier along with some close ups.
estcrh Posted June 29, 2012 Report Posted June 29, 2012 Here is one more three barrel and a six barrel, not sure about the six barrel, something about the metal of the barrels looks funny.
Bugyotsuji Posted June 29, 2012 Author Report Posted June 29, 2012 Eric, I don't know where you pull your pictures from sometimes, but those of the three-barrelled gun are probably older photos of the one I showed earlier now belonging to a friend here in Japan, which we exhibited in March/April. (I also heard rumours/rumors that he is after a six-barrelled gun... hmmm... I wonder if that could be the one!!!???)
estcrh Posted June 29, 2012 Report Posted June 29, 2012 (I also heard rumours/rumors that he is after a six-barrelled gun... hmmm... I wonder if that could be the one!!!???) Piers if this is the six barreled one he is interested in then there must be some deep pockets involved as it was listed at $35,000 if I remember right.
Bugyotsuji Posted June 29, 2012 Author Report Posted June 29, 2012 Could well be. I had heard that the 3-barrelled gun was US $70,000...
Stephen Posted June 29, 2012 Report Posted June 29, 2012 wonder if thats where the Nock gun came from. http://www.nrablog.com/post/2010/10/08/ ... night.aspx
estcrh Posted June 30, 2012 Report Posted June 30, 2012 wonder if thats where the Nock gun came from. Stephen, interesting thought, or maybe some enterprising Japanese gun smith saw the nock gun and decided to copy it.
Bugyotsuji Posted June 30, 2012 Author Report Posted June 30, 2012 Remember that the Chinese had three-barreled guns way back in the Middle Ages. Mostly they could be fired barrel by barrel with a heated wire poked into each touch-hole. (Some of them may have fired three barrels at once from one touch-hole, it has been said in the literature.) The idea of rotating multi-barrels must have gained impetus everywhere in the 1800s and everyone was copying everyone else for the most efficient weapon. A Gatling gun makes an appearance in the Last Samurai! At this point, end of Edo, beginning of Meiji, it would be difficult to say who copied whom.
watsonmil Posted June 30, 2012 Report Posted June 30, 2012 The idea of rotating multi-barrels must have gained impetus everywhere in the 1800s and everyone was copying everyone else for the most efficient weapon. A Gatling gun makes an appearance in the Last Samurai! At this point, end of Edo, beginning of Meiji, it would be difficult to say who copied whom. I'm not going to touch that quote with a 10 foot pole ! ... Ron Watson
IanB Posted June 30, 2012 Report Posted June 30, 2012 Ron, You are very tactful. Multi-barrels and revolving cylinder guns are know from times immoral. Colt illustrated a whole range of matchlock, wheel lock and flintlock revolvers in his lecture to the Institute of Civil Engineers in 1851. I have no doubt that someday a medieval 'hand gonne' will turn up with more than one barrel. As for Nock's 7 barrel volley gun, they were made for the Royal Navy with the idea of being used from the fighting tops, but the recoil of all the barrels going off at once, and the time taken to reload the things, did not endear them to the poor devils who had to use them. Ian Bottomley
Bugyotsuji Posted June 30, 2012 Author Report Posted June 30, 2012 Ian, I think Ron was referring to the film that shall not be named and its historical accuracy. It reminds me of a movie I once saw about some renegades trying to sell an early rotating machine gun to some Indians who were attacking an army fort in the wild west somewhere. The gun gets turned upon the Indians towards the end. Checked the IMDB earlier but couldn't find it. As to a European three-barreled gonne, I am of the same persuasion. If the Chinese and Koreans had them, they certainly could have existed in Europe too. Whereas the whole gun was twisted round on the axis of the pole, later guns had an up-down stock/butt orientation with a revolving mechanism solely for the barrels. Incidentally the butt of the six-barrelled jobbie above looks 'new' in those shots.
watsonmil Posted June 30, 2012 Report Posted June 30, 2012 Dear Piers, and Ian, Ian is the winner, ... to have been less tactful would have been to say that the only noteworthy invention of the Japanese was the Karaoke Machine. The Japanese are good ( the best ) at miniaturizing existing inventions, and somewhat improving upon them, ... but the Japanese are not known as being inventive. ... Ron Watson
kusunokimasahige Posted June 30, 2012 Report Posted June 30, 2012 To add to Ian's comment, there are plenty of examples of European multi-barreled Medieval hand cannon Pitt-rivers museum Oxford : Though I must say that this later era nock gun is also rather cool : KM
Bugyotsuji Posted July 1, 2012 Author Report Posted July 1, 2012 Thanks for the photos, Henk-Jan. (The Nock gun is the same pic that Stephen posted above?) It would be interesting to see what the white notices read. One of the above guns looks of Chinese/Korean style, and a repro, at first glanced. And Ron, the penny has finally dropped as to your comment above. It was not my intention but rather the poor wording that set you thinking that way. My bad. My comment was addressed to Stephen who had suggested that the Nock gun might have been an imitation of a Japanese gun. The only 'original' multi-barrelled Japanese gun that I can think of is one that looks like a splayed garden rake, but even then, who knows?
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