Bugyotsuji Posted June 16, 2012 Author Report Posted June 16, 2012 Yes, Netsuke are a minefield, and many auction houses have not a clue. :lol: Can you get a shot of the first half of signature? The one above is partly in shadow.
Viper6924 Posted June 16, 2012 Report Posted June 16, 2012 Here´s the pic of the signature. If You don´t know your hands shake before, try operating a supermacro with one hand... I hope this helps. Thanks! Jan
Bugyotsuji Posted June 18, 2012 Author Report Posted June 18, 2012 Well, I am guessing that the signature is possibly meant to be read Masanobu 正信 but I cannot find a clear example in the literature to support this. There is an example in the MCI of a Masanobu signing in soshotai (Kuzushi-Ji) but it looks relaxed and natural whereas your coin signature looks slow and deliberate, creating a Kanji which does not exist.
Viper6924 Posted June 18, 2012 Report Posted June 18, 2012 We can call it a "none meaning mei" I wonder if that falls under the gimei-dept :lol: Thanks a lot for Your effort, Piers! Jan
Bugyotsuji Posted June 18, 2012 Author Report Posted June 18, 2012 You may be right Jan. I like your sanguine attitude towards things though! Here is a puzzle for any bored (board) members. Simple question, what is this for? Made of stitched Nerikawa, gold on black lacquer. Size, palm of your hand, large tsuba? 9.5 cm x 10 cm (NB I am f.a.i.r.l.y confident that no-one will get this. It will surely add pressure to your life, so anyone under stress at work... DO NOT LOOK.)
Viper6924 Posted June 19, 2012 Report Posted June 19, 2012 My motto is "choose your battles". Helps somewhat when the cold wind blows down your backside Regarding Your puzzle I would guess that its´something You put in the christmastree :D EDO-period of course... Jan
IanB Posted June 19, 2012 Report Posted June 19, 2012 Piers, I have three suggestions as to the possible use of your gold octagon. I would suggest the second and third are most likely. 1. A unit or troop indicator fastened to the top of the pole of the sashimono. 2. A spear label. 3. A luggage label. Ian Bottomley
Bugyotsuji Posted June 19, 2012 Author Report Posted June 19, 2012 Hmmmm... now I have to be very careful. Can't lose this one... :lol: My initial thoughts were along the same lines as your 1 and 2. A yarijirushi seemed likely as I have something rather similar. The luggage tag theory also looks good. It is also in the shape of a Kaku Mon, in this case a hachikaku, sumi-kiri-kaku. (A square with a large round hole is called a Teppo-kaku or gun square, by the way.) Anyway, this is what the dealer told me, although I do not believe everything he says, despite his large collection of goodies. He showed me an oval ring, carved out of solid wood and asked me what I thought it was. His answer was, to hang from a tree branch and slide the barrel through for accurate shooting. Later he showed me the gold one in the pics above and said it had the same function. Such rings are illustrated in the literature somewhere, I believe, and I will now go and have a look. Anyway, I bought the more expensive one as I thought it would be a good exercise for the collective cranium here. And the rest is history. If it is a yari-jirushi, well, they are fairly expensive anyway so I will not have wasted my money, but I dearly hope the gun sling explanation is correct! Ian, go easy on me here...
Viper6924 Posted June 19, 2012 Report Posted June 19, 2012 If You are right about the teppo-support, I feel I was at least half way there with my christmastree ornament... All jokes aside. I acctually thought this could have something to do with a teppo when I saw the octagon-shape of the "thing". I just think it looks a bit weak for that use. Must have been supported by a very strong cord. Wouldn´t it obscure the aim? /Jan
Bugyotsuji Posted June 19, 2012 Author Report Posted June 19, 2012 Very reasonable objections, but now you've got me doing stupid things. How do you hold a gun in one hand and take photos with the other, without allowing the gun to rest too heavily on the feeble string, and without dropping or breaking anything? Actually my castle gun is a fairly thick and heavy gun of its type, but even so I was able to get a look-in for you in the doorway. With a slimmer gun or a target pistol there should be no problem, and the base of the stock should sit neatly in the bottom of the ring. Scrub those shots! :lol: These are with the cavalry pistol and give a better idea. PS Jan, in my nervousness at having to answer Ian, I forgot to mention I like your Christmas tree decoration vision and have to admit it was on the right track!
Viper6924 Posted June 19, 2012 Report Posted June 19, 2012 The amazing internet. Within two hours we go from a question to picture confirmation. It clearly works. You get a clear shot even with this support. But I still have my doubts about the string. I just hope Your wife didn´t stumbled in at the wrong moment Jan
Bugyotsuji Posted June 19, 2012 Author Report Posted June 19, 2012 The string was on when I bought it and looks new to me. I'll find something older and more suitable. (iPhone) A string loop would be pretty useless; it will need two long ends for tying to different heights of branch. (If the branch is low enough you can simply rest your gun on it.) Oh, and not to worry about the wife. She turns in early and leaves the house to me.
watsonmil Posted June 19, 2012 Report Posted June 19, 2012 Dear Piers, I have a couple of reservations, .... Being that we all agree the string is too light to safely hang the rifle support ( if that is what it is ), ... why not check the hole in the contraption to see if it once held a more sturdy THICKER string ? Secondly, ... please find me a woodblock print or drawing of the contraption in use, .... that would CONVINCE me. Even a man using a branch or the crook in a tree to support and steady his gun still uses both hands to hold the weapon ( I have used this method many times while hunting to get off a more accurate shot ), ... but although it looks feasible, ... in practice it would be a most unstable gun platform ( rest ). One would be much better off simply leaning the gun againt a tree to help steady his aim, ... rather than climb some bloody tree to " hang a blow in the wind Christmas Tree style decoration " to act as a gun rest. Then again with the Japanese ... anything is possible ! ... Ron Watson
Bugyotsuji Posted June 19, 2012 Author Report Posted June 19, 2012 Dang, I've got to sign in again (how many times today?) to answer Ron's perceptive post. If you look at the close-up shot above, Ron, you will notice a slit where the string passes through. I suspect a long strip of leather thong was used originally. Somewhere I have seen an illustration of this sling in use, but I have just spent the whole evening sifting through shooting school gun books etc., and come up a big fat blank. That the Japanese are capable of much that is illogical is very true. Hold that thought...
IanB Posted June 19, 2012 Report Posted June 19, 2012 Piers, Cheer up - we can't have you crying into your pillow night after night. I have a cartridge box with the same octagonal kamon on the flap. This at least suggests it could be an identifier of some sort. But - I have had a really good look and did note the hole looks to be a narrow slot as if it once took a flat braid rather than a bit of string. That could accord with it having to support a weight. I also deduce from the sewing that it is of two layers of nerigawa. Again that would be excessive for a label or a yari jirushi - so you may well be right. Well done on acquiring a really weird item. Ian
Bugyotsuji Posted June 19, 2012 Author Report Posted June 19, 2012 Phew, I have been trawling the internet to try and find an example to satisfy the examiners and I was starting to fall asleep. Thank you for the leeway, Ian. (I was indeed assured that it is a very rare object.) :lol:
watsonmil Posted June 19, 2012 Report Posted June 19, 2012 Dear Piers, I often come across ( so I am told as intimidating ) in my speach, and in my writing ( I just ran into a 260 pound RCMPolice Officer this morning , ... he was coming out of the Post Office as I was going in, ... He looked down at me chest stuck out and said Good morning. I in turn ignored him. He promptly said excuse me ... I just said Good Morning to you, ... to which I replied : if you were a Police Officer I would have acknowledged you, but since you people are no longer Policemen but damn Government Tax Collectors I really feel no obligation to acknowledge your type. He said is that so, ... and I said well just look at yourself you're at least 260 pounds and couldn't catch a criminal for the life of you, ... but you have no problem writing out traffic ticket violations now do you ?? I then left him standing as I turned and walked away. I am really a pussy cat at heart and did not mean to be so sharp in my critisism. Perhaps you will turn out to be correct with your identification and I will come out of this thread with mud on my face. Take the contraption outside where there is an actual branch to hang it off, and with the normal light breeze found on any day just try and get a steady rest ( gun platform ) from the artifact, .... you will then see why I have reservations. ... Ron Watson
Bugyotsuji Posted June 19, 2012 Author Report Posted June 19, 2012 Ron, I value your input, even if it hurts sometimes. I came on with a puzzle which I had bought for the members with the sole purpose of seeing who could get the answer (which I didn't). Under the glare of the forum spotlights, I find myself backtracking and looking hastily for proof (which I should have had in the first place) now wondering who will get the splodge of mud in their face...! :lol: I don't mind, if the process has been enjoyable. The typhoon has now passed, so I COULD go out in the garden for the location shoot but the mozzies have started... how far am I willing to offer myself as bait for the advancement of knowledge? Yes, I am sure it would twizzle in the wind like a pigeon scarer!
Bazza Posted June 20, 2012 Report Posted June 20, 2012 Actually my castle gun is a fairly thick and heavy gun of its type, "Castle gun"??? - do tell more, please. What constitutes a Castle gun??? Bestests, BaZZa.
Bugyotsuji Posted June 20, 2012 Author Report Posted June 20, 2012 Bazza, it' the same 'Kuyo-Mon' Hosokawa gun I use for our displays and have shown here on the forum before. Mine is from Kumamoto Castle and has various information written on the stock and over 20 Kanji cut into the barrel to testify! Call me a belt-and-braces man! There are not too many of these that can clearly be linked to a particular castle, but Mr Doi, the guy next in the firing line, has a genuine one from Himeji castle with the lettering on it to back his up also. It's funny to think that if you visit Himeji Castle, you will see only their modern and rather feeble replicas in those splendid gun racks along the Tenshukaku inner walls. 2/3 down page 129 from this thread, Feb 2012 is a picture: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2554&p=104279&hilit=+hosokawa+kuyomon+kumamoto+higo+#p104279 As to what constitutes a castle gun, that is a more difficult question. Remove all small bore and hunting guns from the equation, except for the long-barrelled small-bore Hazama-zutsu of Tokushima. Use the Japanese expression "Shiro-zonae-ju" 城備銃 (Jobiju?) and you come up with castle armoury gun. They often have numbers on them, such as 千の二十四 (No. 24 out of 1,000). My numbers are written down the top of the barrel where they could be seen in a gunrack. (The repeated character for Ten may also be a Kakure-Christian cross.) Both of our guns are heavy and with fairly large caliber/bore. Although mine carries the Hosokawa Mon on the stock and the barrel, it is not of superb Daimyo quality, qualifying it for ranked soldier warfare. Dated Higo 1847, it was forged in the military build-up to the pressures of the Western powers and black ships.
Baka Gaijin Posted June 20, 2012 Report Posted June 20, 2012 Good morning Piers, Fascinating stuff re the Nerikawa Gun rest. However, I suggest this as preferred method for "negotiating" the client in a woodland scenario http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enBM3SQwryE From about 1.26 Classic Movie!! Where's my Cravat? Cheers
Viper6924 Posted June 21, 2012 Report Posted June 21, 2012 Hi guys! On the subject of big mounted Japanese cannons. Here´s a picture I found of a big cannon mounted on bales of straw. I noticed the bale hanging from the barrel as a counterweight and also the sight which I haven´t seen before. I feel the whole construction seems a bit shaky. Only held in place by four wooden stakes. And I don´t think the bale hanging from the barrel could have had much of an inpact. This print is made 1614. I guess it could have been used in the Osaka-campaigne. Jan
Bugyotsuji Posted June 21, 2012 Author Report Posted June 21, 2012 Jan, they are straw bales... of rice, which is quite heavy. Food reserves can be doing something useful at the same time! (Unless they are used ones filled with earth, which is possible.) The wooden object lying on the barrel must be some kind of portable quadrant for estimating elevation and trajectory for laying the gun. Used with a plumbline. Informative picture, for which many thanks! Incidentally we had a very similar gun on display at the castle in March/April. Not of very large caliber, but it was unbelievable heavy. I am guessing that way back then they had to make them triple thick to try and avoid any possibility of the thing blowing up under heavy load.
estcrh Posted June 23, 2012 Report Posted June 23, 2012 I just ran into this interesting 3 barreled tanegashima, anyone ever seen one like this?
IanB Posted June 23, 2012 Report Posted June 23, 2012 Eric, That is a new variation on the theme. I have seen several three barrelled ones, we have one in the Royal Armouries, and all had squirrels and vines in gold overlay on the barrels as decoration. They all must have been made in one workshop and I suspect they were Meiji anyway. This at least looks old. Ian Bottomley
Bugyotsuji Posted June 23, 2012 Author Report Posted June 23, 2012 Agreed with Ian. That one looks unusually good and solid and genuine. I saw the one at the Royal armouries when Ian kindly showed me around. They fetch a good price so there are well-known fakes out there. caveat emptor. My friend here in Japan spent 10 years negotiating to buy one from a collector in NY and bring it back to Japan, which he did. We displayed it in the castle in March, April. Signed by a well-known Bizen gunsmith, the barrels were covered in Bizen Karakusa silver Arabesque. It has now gone into the collection of an expert on armour in Kobe. (Hoping to visit there tomorrow.)
Brian Posted June 23, 2012 Report Posted June 23, 2012 DTI around 2008 or so? There were some very interesting guns there. Love the design. Brian
Bugyotsuji Posted June 23, 2012 Author Report Posted June 23, 2012 On a personal note I am sorry to have to say that both Ron and Ian were right and I was wrong to believe the antiques dealer concerning the gold nerikawa octagon. Thank you lads for keeping me honest. Having found nothing in the literature and having consulted some ancient gunnery experts the theory of a gun sling has been trashed. It is a Yari-jirushi, apparently, and a perfectly good one with a value of about what I paid for it. I bought it on the premise that it was what he had told me, so Moody's have now downgraded this dealer from AAA to ABB. Grrr.... On the other hand I did find a little Edo Period object here which might just help another conversation going above on this thread. No commentary this time.
watsonmil Posted June 23, 2012 Report Posted June 23, 2012 Dear Piers, The brass instrument is called a Gunner's Level. They were a common scientific gunnery ( artillery ) instrument of 17th and early 18th century Europe. A Japanese version of this instrument would be considered very rare. Tell me is their a maker's mark ? Since I cannot see any kanji perhaps it is European in manufacture and simply imported by the Japanese ?? An excellent find and quite valuable, ... as I've sold only a very few artillery instruments from the 17th, 18th centuries and for a very good dollar. ... Ron Watson
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